TRT and steroids

[boimoit]

Hi Dylan


I'm 48 years old, 5'6" tall, 150lbs, body fat of 18% and have an ectomorph build.


I've been on TRT (Testosterone Cypionate) @ only 75mgs/week injection. My endocrinologist is very conservative, however this dose has raised my Total Testosterone from 250 to the mid 600 area.


I've lifted weights ever since I was 14 yrs old and have been consistently lifting throughout my entire life. Genetically, I'm naturally a hard gainer.


Over the course of my life, I've taken AAS cycles about a dozen times but never to the extreme dosages most men take them, as I'm a light weight.


Here is my question:


I decided I'd like to start a 12 week Testosterone Cypionate/Nandolone Decanoate cycle (just those two, as I'm looking to add size and reduce joint pain)


I have several 10ml vials of Testosterone Cypionate (200mg/ml) and Nandrolone Decanoate (300mg/ml), which I plan to dose EQUALLY starting with 200mg/wk each on week #1 & 2 then 300mg/wk each for the remainder of the cyclem then go back to cruising on the 75mg of Testosterone Cypionate like normal. From my research, guys on TRT do not need to go on PCT (unless you have a difference of conventional opinion)


I have an ample supply of ancillaries Cabergoline (.25 mg tablets) as a dopamine agonist/prolactin reducer ; and Arimidex (.50 mg tablets) to reduce Estrogen


I know that with any 19-Nor you must run Caber to reduce Progestin and typically you should use an AI to reduce the T Cypionate's conversion into Estrogen.


In your opinion, should I take BOTH the Cabergoline and Arimidex to reduce Prolactin and Estrogen while on this cycle? I recall reading that an AI isn't necessary while taking a 19-Nor but because I'm stacking with T. Cypionate, that it should be taken alongside the Caber.


If so, I was thinking Cabergoline .25mg every 3 days and Arimidex .25 every 3 days as well.


I feel that @ between 250 - 300mg/wk of both T. Cypionate/Deca, the above dose of ancillaries would be sufficient.


But I defer to you for your opinion on the matter, and apologize in advance if any of my information is inaccurate. That's why I'm writing you so that I get the correct info and any other suggestions you have.


Thank you so much brother!

 

[EZ_E]

If you weigh 150 and have 18% of that as fat; AAS isn't for you.

There's no such thing as a hard gainer.

How long have you been on TRT?

 

[boimoit]

In addition to the above...

I've been on TRT for over 8 years yet I've experienced absolutely no testicular atrophy or sexual side effects other than age related ED which I occasionally take Viagra/Cialis for. I'm pretty sexually active and have had no issues over the past 8+ years on TRT. Sometimes my Total Testosterone levels fluctuate from the 600 - 780 area and this really does depend on how many days AFTER I pin last, then take my blood labs. (ie: if I pin on a Wednesday then take labs that Friday, my Total T his much higher than if I wanted say 5-6 days after my last injection).

Also, in my previous post, I erred as to the milligram dosage of the arimidex (anastrozole) tablets I have on hand. They are 1mg (not .50mg) so I was going to cut them into quarters and take .25mg every 3 days - unless you think that's too low a dose.* Again, I'm only going to be running between 250 - 300mg of both the T. Cypionate and Deca EQUALLY and didn't want to over dose either the Cabergoline or the Arimidex. I DO NOT have Aromasin on hand and felt the Arimidex at .25 E3D should provide me enough protection from the increase in Estrogen from T. Cypionate conversion (albeit I'm taking what I consider to be a low dose of T. Cypionate (200mg - 250mg) but may gradually increase it to 300mg per week along with the Deca Durabolin increase to 300mg/wk. I'm extremely sensitive to ANY increase in my testosterone dosage. As far as Nandrolone, I noticed a substantial increase in strength within DAY of taking it and that usual "ringing in the ears" and feelings of wanting to get up at 3am and jog around the block a few times to take the edge off. For myself personally, the effects of this stack hit me much much faster than the 4-5 weeks I've heard from others.

One more thing, even though men on TRT don't need Post Cycle Therapy, I'd like to get my boys back in gear and wanted to know your thoughts on running some hcg?* In the past, my endo would have me take hcg injections every few days while cruising on only 75mgs of T. Cypionate, to keep my testicals in gear and they felt fuller and I produced substantially more ejaculate (sorry) - but was wondering your opinion if I should dose hcg while on this cycle.* If so, dose throughout the entire 12 weeks, or would you suggest dosing during the latter stage of the cycle. I believe that hcg exogenously stimulates the production of FSH and LH. which common sense seems counter productive if the average NON TRT individual wants to stimulate his own body to begin producing it's own Testosterone.

I know I'm going to get "schooled" by forum participants telling me "Bro, you've been in TRT for over 8+ years man. Your hypothalamus/gonads have been done for, so there's no need to even bother using PCT, but my body is telling me that at such a low dose of 75 mg/wk that I've sorta been "Supplementing" my own T production rather than completely shutting it down. I can see if my Doctor had me pinning 150 - 250mg/wk for 8+ years, i'd be shut down - but with only 75mg?

As an aside, I also have Nolvadex 20mg tablets but I've heard that's a big no no when taking a 19-Nor. I don't believe Nolvadex belongs in a cycle while using a 19-Nor compound like Tren/Deca, and that the only ancillary needed was arimidex/aromasin as AI's and the Cabergoline as a dopamine agonist/anti progestin. I'm not prone to getting gynocomastia and don't anticipate experiencing such on what I consider to be a relatively low dose. I normally start off with 200mg Test Cypionate and 200mg Nandrolone Decanoate, which from what I've been researching, is a fairly light cycle - but I'm a light individual and one that is VERY sensitive to AAS. I'm talking within 30 - 45 minutes of pinning, my heart rate escalates and I get that "headache" (u know the one). I try to take my injections immediately before going to bed , alongside some sleepy time herbs or a Xanax so I sleep through those sides. The following day I always wake up with a pounding headache but feel very good at the gym.

My final issue is elevated cholesterol. I've always (and I mean since I was a child) had cholesterol levels in the 180 - 240 area with HDL between 48-54 and LDL in the 150-170 area and Triglycerides around 85. My cholesterol/HDLC ratios are always around 4-5. So my endocrinologist started me on Atorvastatin 20mg and within 3 weeks my Total Cholesterol dropped to 156, my HDL cholesterol also decreased to 46, Triglycerides INCREASED to 112 and LDL cholesterol decreased to 86 (all smack in the middle of normal valuations)

Do I continue to take the Atorvastatin while going on this 12-14 week T. Cypionate/Nandrolone Decanoate cycle? I know statins are very taxing on the liver but thougt I'd be safe continuing to take them, as I'm not incorporating any liver sensitive orals on this cycle.

When my cycle ends on week 14, typical NON TRT users wait 2+ wks for the longer acting esters to clear their system prior to starting their Clomid/Nolvadex/Arimidex PCT but its interesting that those on TRT don't have to? This makes little sense because the longer acting esters from the 19-Nor would be still converting into progesterone and the elevated doses of T. Cypionate will continue to aromatize into Estrogen - so wouldn't it make sense to go on an 8 week cruise on an AI to offset any lingering progestin/estrogen so that the 75mg T. Cypionate can resume without all this estrogen in the mix?

Sorry for the long post but I believe in doing my research and obtaining good qualified opinions ahead of starting.

Thanks for any info you can provide

 

[jp1957]

75mg is pretty low, I'd suggest instead of a blast, you up to 150 weekly, check bloods, in 6 weeks. That should put you around 1200 which is plenty.

 

[jp1957]

Oh, by the way, your arent supplementing shit. 75mg should put you around 600, which you are. AND YOU ARE SHUT DOWN!

No one is going to advise you any sort of blast at 18% body fat.

 

[buen]

as stated above...there is no such thing a "supplementing"
if you use any amount of testosterone ( be it 50mg or 500mg)...it completely shuts your natural production down

If you want to blast you need to get your BF down...
8 yrs trt and you are 18% BF is a glaring example of you not having a disciplined diet and training program
Without a consistant disciplined diet (which would be evidenced by a much lower BF)
No amount of additional testosterone or AAS will be of any benefit to you
The steroids wont do it for you... you need to buckle down and maintain a bf below 14%

 

[boimoit]

My endocrinologist has his "parameters" and states that for a man my age, 600 is right about where I should be, and where he's comfortable keeping me. He states his rationale is from all the JAMA research that too elevated a testosterone level can cause heart issues, so these conventional doctors are erring on the side of caution I suppose. I'm not going to one of these "BodyLogic MD" or "Cenegenics" type establishments where the physicians are more open to higher doses of Testosterone Cypionate and the use of ancillaries and hcg etc. Of course I can "up my dose" to 150 of T. Cypionate a week but I wanted to stack some Deca Durabolin and just do a cycle for the summer months. I suffer with some degree of joint pain in my elbows and shoulders and I recall the nandrolone really helped me with those issues and the pain relief lasted for many many months post cycle. I hear of some TRT patients adding small amounts of Deca (ie 50mg) to their weekly Test injection and not many of these guys are running Caber or AI's - most likely because that low of a dose doesn't typically increase progestin/prolactin/estrogen levels to the extent of causing noticeable sides.

 

[buen]

"My endocrinologist has his "parameters" and states that for a man my age, 600 is right about where I should be, and where he's comfortable keeping me. He states his rationale is from all the JAMA research that too elevated a testosterone level can cause heart issues," (prostate and other general health issues also)

This is very sound advise...I wish more guys on TRT understood it

yes...I believe ( and have been prescribed after surgery)...a low dose (50mg) of Deca is generally safe (when used intermittently) along side your TRT

What is NOT safe or effective...is "blasting"( your proposed 200-300mg) at elevated BF
Just like non TRT guys...you need to establish a long term consistent diet and training regime before AAS use is appropriate

 

[boimoit]

What I meant by "supplementing" is that most men are cruising at 100 - 200mg of T. Cypionate per week on TRT. At only 75mg/wk, I've noticed absolutely zero change in my libido, sex drive, ejaculate and absolutely zero testicular atrophy after 8+ years of use. Every body is different but this has been my experience. I do notice that when I did increase my T. Cypionate dose from 75mg/wk to about 125mg/wk for just 2 weeks, that my libido began to wane and my sex drive was less and my testicles became noticeably smaller and had less volume. That's when my endocrinologist prescribed hcg to take, as this would increase FSH and LH, stimulating my hypothalamus to signal my testicles to produce Testosterone, even though I was on a higher dose of exogenous testosterone as it was. It didn't make much sense to me why he'd want to increase my FSH and LH so that my body wouldn't go "as much on vacation" as it would if I were on total hormone replacement. I suppose every physician has his methods. He even put me on anastrazole (arimidex) .25mg twice a week to keep my estradiol levels in check (sub 35). I have since changed Endocrinologists and have been cruising on 75mg/week with no ancillaries whatsoever. The only think I take is lots of supplements (the usual - L-Glutamine, a wide variety of mixed whey and casein based protein powders, about a dozen egg whites per day, wild caught salmon, tuna fish, EPA/DHA, a myriad of vitamins/minerals, magnesium malate, creatine, a gallon of alkalized water daily (8.4pH), and some herbal formulas like stinging nettles that's supposed to block SHBG (sex hormone binding globulin). I get labs performed every single 12 weeks of my life but this time I'm skipping them after my cycle because my doctor will freak the hell out that everythings out of wack , and he may stop prescribing the T. Cypionate - so, I'll wait an additional 3 months to see him after I'm done with the blast.

As to your comment about no one is going to advise me to do any sort of cycle at an 18% body fat composition, I don't really follow. I'm not trying to run a cutting cycle. I'm trying to gain mass to build a foundation to run a cutting cycle in time (with proper diet ofcourse). A healthy body fat percentage for a male my age is between 14-17% if I was in the "Fitness" category (which I'm not really). I exercise with weights 3-4x/wk and do yoga 2x/wk but I need to begin cardio as my resting heart rate is 92. My cardiologist says anything under 100 is acceptable but that's complete bs. The more cardio you do, consistently, the lower your resting heart rate should be. So I do intend on reducing my body fat by way of dieting better and performing more cardio at the gym. The "Acceptable/Normal" body fat percentage is 18-25% for those that don't exercise on a routine basis. I'm at 18% so I don't really have much more to go to get to 14-17%. I don't see why I wouldn't be able to start a cycle of Test/Deca at 300/300 with Caber/Arimidex for a 14 wk blast and not see pretty decent results of mass, strength, and when dieting properly, a decrease in my body fat percentage - even though Test/Deca isn't attributable to cutting like other AAS are.

 

[boimoit]

Thank you buen. I'm going to try to get in more cardio on a daily basis and cut down on the fats and see if I cant get my body fat down to a more realistically 15-16% for starters. I appreciate everyone's opinion here.

 

[buen]

first off...being shut down has nothing to do with sides or how you feel...any amount of exogenous testosterone cause a negitve feed back loop that stops production of LH and FSH...want confirmation...just check your numbers...LH and FSH wont be "reduced"...they will be vertually zero
HCG mimics LH...it cant work in the presence of exogenous testosterone
Guys that come off cycle use it to "kick start" their natural production as the testosterone esters clear
The only benefit guys on trt receive is in reducing testicular atrophy...
It does not and can not stimulate LH FSH or natural testosterone production in TRT patients

 

[buen]

also ...all the above rationaliIng about healthly fat percentage blah blah blah...
DOESN'T apply to the safe healthly and EFFECTIVE use of STEROIDS

Steroid use is for individuals that are above normal health, condition and fitness

come on... you have high BP and you think a steroid cycle wont be detrimental?
steroid use by anyone other that the most fit can be dangerous...its a far cry from trt where you are just trying to replace the bodies natural level

steroids build muscle by transporting extra ordinary amounts of nitogen into the muscle..
in your condition you arent even utilizing your natural capacity...upping the transport capacity does nothing for you..thats why they wouldn't be effective
steroids arent for getting in shape...they dont add mass to guys that aren't already working at an extremely high level
18% BF shows you are in no condition to cycle...you have the cart before the horse my friend
you need to develop a foundation first... then you can start to build

 

[RickRock]

18-25% bodyfat being classified as normal doesn't apply to bodybuilders and people that take steroids and this lifestyle seriously. 18-25% bodyfat is pretty fat. Period. We don't condone at advise anyone on Steroid use that is above 15% bodyfat and ideally you should be no more than 12-13% before cycling in my opinion

 

[EZ_E]

What the hell is: Ringing in the ears and wanting to run around the block to take the edge off?

 

[buen]

What the hell is: Ringing in the ears and wanting to run around the block to take the edge off?

A rapid increase in blood pressure

 

[EZ_E]

A rapid increase in blood pressure

That's what I was thinking.

 

[DylanGemelli]

you are misunderstanding a healthy body fat in terms of a normal person as opposed to someone using steroids... 18% is absurd to be using steroids... you are putting yourself at a MUCH higher risk for MANY side effects... 15-16% is also not good to be using steroids... im finding it very hard to understand and/or comprehend that someone that is dialed in with diet and training would not be able to get in the 12-13% range... im finding that hard to believe because its simply not accurate... ANYONE can do it with a few exceptions, one being some sort of medical issue... you can do whatever you want and im sure you can go elsewhere and find any asshole that could care less about your health, advise you on running a blast, but here, we take care of everyone and noone puts anyone in harms way...

 

[boimoit]

Is there a way I can post a photo of my body on here so you can see what I presently look like? I took my body fat analysis from one of those hand held meters at the gym and i'm not certain how accurate it is, so maybe I can post an image and you can all weigh in? I'm not fat by any stretch of the imagination. I think I carry a little too much weight around my mid section. All I was attempting to do on this 12-14 week cycle of Testosterone Cypionate/Deca Durabolin was build more mass, gain 10 or so lbs of muscle and with more muscle tissue, I'd burn more fat. I'm eating much better right now and reducing my fat intake and making wiser selections when I shop, eating more natural foods, whole fruits and vegetables, tuna and canned salmon, etc etc. I'm not training for competition guys. I just wanted to get a little stronger in the gym and rid my joints of the aches and pains I often feel. I've cycled deca before and felt great while on as well as months after I went off. I also realize the rationale that one should be at a reduced body fat of between 9-14% and have been on a longer term diet and exercise regimen prior to starting a cycle of AAS. That would be the best foundation to start off with. It's just that I've witnessed people with higher bf levels, go on a cycle while simultaneously following a strict fat reducing diet and increasing cardio & thermogenic supplements, and within 2 months of training hard and eating disciplined, completely transform their bodies. I do appreciate everyone's opinion (based on fact and experience) and I wanted to thank each and everyone one of you for weighing in.

 

[boimoit]

You wont find me going anywhere else but your forum Dylan. I highly respect your opinion and didn't mean any disrespect by insinuating I'm going to get my bf down to realistic levels prior to cycling.

In everyone's opinion, do you think that over the course of 8+ years of being on 75mg T. Cypionate per week, that this accumulation of exogenous testosterone is being bound (via SHBG) and being converted to estrogen that could be adding to the increase in my body fat? I have never taken an AI ancillary since I've been on TRT aside from when my original endocrinologist prescribed anastrozole (arimidex) .25mg E2D to reduce estradiol.

My latest blood labs came back today and are as follows:

Cholesterol, Total 154 (Target 125 - 200mg/dL)
HDL Cholesterol 49 (Target > or = 40mg/dL)
Triglycerides 112 (Target <150)
LDL Cholesterol 86 (Target <130mg/dL)
Chol/HDLC Ratio 3.3 (norms <= 5.0)
Non HDL Cholesterol 108 (should be 30mg/dL higher than LDL Cholesterol Target)
Glucose 89
Testosterone, Total 689 (Target 250-1100 ng/dL)
Testosterone, Free 176.4 (Target 35 - 155 ng/dL)

I was prescribed atorvastatin 20mg by my physician over 1.5 months ago because my cholesterol (since I was a child, thru adolescence into adulthood has always been over 200 mg/dL and LDL Cholesterol always over 130 mg/dL). So he felt it best to put me on atorvastatin 20mg but I know about liver toxicity as well as the rare chance of rhabdomyolsis, and decided to downward adjust my dose from 20mg to 10mg. As you can tell from the results obtained today, the 10mg dose appears to be doing it's job versus taking double that for the same desired effect. I'm big on "less is more" in cases like this. Do any of you have any opinion on the safety (risk/reward) of staying on statin meds while on cycle? And yes I realize that all of these health issues would best be addressed by dietary route (lower cholesterol, lower bf etc etc) but like I said, I just want to put on a little size and hope the deca helps with the joint pain, WHILE I'm dieting, increasing my cardio to lower my resting heart rate etc. I plan on lifting 3-4 days per week, yoga and cardio on same day for 3 alternating days. Appreciate anyone's opinion on the matter, and again I apologise if it appears I'm not willing to take everyone's advice - because I am.

 

[boimoit]

I don't know how to make my image bigger even though I adjusted the settings to the largest in my photo editing software.

This is what I look like, present day 7-9-17 with 18% body fat (according to the machine I used at the gym)

I'm not a big guy. Only 5'6" tall, 150 lbs, small frame. I exercise daily, pushups, pullups, gym 3-4 days/wk and yoga 2-3 days/wk and I'm starting to incorporate cardio.

I was just looking to build some mass is all and if I diet properly, my bf should decrease as I'm building more muscle.

I feel good, although I need to get my resting heart rate down by way of cardio. I don't have hypertension, BP is 118/80 most days but I do get tachycardia due to anxiety and elevated BP typically when on cycle.

Also, I donate blood every 56 days of my life, so my RBC, Hemoglobin, Hematocrit levels don't elevate.

Just wanted to provide as many facts as I could to everyone.