Dylan, need some advice.

[punkpwnzor]

Background - 27yr old man, 5'9 @ 160LBS, no prior AAS OR pro-hormones. Just in case if matters.

So i been waiting patiently to jump on sarms and just have not made the move yet. My main reason for even considering sarms is to make some muscle gains, but i feel i need to get my health in order. Early this year i was getting some blood work done and i was really curious to see where my T levels were at. They landed in the low normal range of 421. Doctor said that was fine and nothing to consider TRT. In my head i felt that maybe they needed to be a bit on the higher side for overall health.

Then i figured why not use a T booster that was DAA based along with some other ingredients. After running that for a month, i did my blood work again to see if their was a boost and surprisingly enough my T levels drop to 374. Very odd at the least. So after my doctor saw the results from that result, he did agree that it was odd that it drop almost 50 points. Said that it could be due to my Vitamin d3 deficiency (which i was) and wanted to see my blood work again before sending me to a specialist. My 3rd and final results shows my T levels went from 374 to 397ng/dl of TEST and Free test was 19.5 (range was 9.3-26.5)

At this current point in time and after speaking to some in the industry, ranges closer to 1000ng/dl of TEST is optimal for muscle gains and probably other health factors. I assume that ranges where i am currently arent that great and could be better. Some things to note are, i do not have any bad side effects of low T like erection issues or not having morning wood, my doctor said that if those issues happen then we need to see a specialist. I feel my levels should be on the higher side seeing that im not that old.


My only guess at this moment is luteinizing hormone issues or my nuts are just not producing enough. A buddy of mine who is 26 yrs old levels are 600. I feel that my general doctor does not care that much, so i want to ask for a referral to see a specialist. If i get my blood done again, which things should i ask for specifically in my blood work documents or ask the doctor to check for? i never asked to see where my estrogen was at before so i may ask for that information as well.

Because my low T i feel that sarms might not be as much help and i would rather much use sarms when my overall T levels are in better check. Maybe i am overthinking it, but thats just how i feel. I know sarms such as Rad140 might be of some assistance, but not sure to what extent and how high would it raise my T.

thank you guys. I hope to see Dylan in the comments.

 

[TexasTrash]

Ive got a friend that was in a nearly identical situation. His T was reasonable but he kept saying Low T (to support his reasoning) and also did not have any of the normal sides for low T. He ended up "having a conversation with himself" and determined that he had pretty much decided to try AAS and was ultimately just looking for the info that would support this. Not saying that is you OP but just something to think on. Personally I wouldnt consider 400 Low T (although it is definitely not on the high side) but I would continue to try and see if there is something suppressing you because it could perhaps be higher naturally. Obviously Im no doctor and there are tons of other variables so TRT might ultimately be a great option. TRT is a lifelong commitment and should not be taken lightly..........it could be a wonderful decision or a hassle for you. Just be very sure when you make that decision.

I would be curious to hear more about your training and diet (both current and past). Your height/weight would lead me to believe that you may be able to make some pretty decent gains with some adjustments there. Probably not the answer you were looking for.

 

[DylanGemelli]

Background - 27yr old man, 5'9 @ 160LBS, no prior AAS OR pro-hormones. Just in case if matters.

So i been waiting patiently to jump on sarms and just have not made the move yet. My main reason for even considering sarms is to make some muscle gains, but i feel i need to get my health in order. Early this year i was getting some blood work done and i was really curious to see where my T levels were at. They landed in the low normal range of 421. Doctor said that was fine and nothing to consider TRT. In my head i felt that maybe they needed to be a bit on the higher side for overall health.

Then i figured why not use a T booster that was DAA based along with some other ingredients. After running that for a month, i did my blood work again to see if their was a boost and surprisingly enough my T levels drop to 374. Very odd at the least. So after my doctor saw the results from that result, he did agree that it was odd that it drop almost 50 points. Said that it could be due to my Vitamin d3 deficiency (which i was) and wanted to see my blood work again before sending me to a specialist. My 3rd and final results shows my T levels went from 374 to 397ng/dl of TEST and Free test was 19.5 (range was 9.3-26.5)

At this current point in time and after speaking to some in the industry, ranges closer to 1000ng/dl of TEST is optimal for muscle gains and probably other health factors. I assume that ranges where i am currently arent that great and could be better. Some things to note are, i do not have any bad side effects of low T like erection issues or not having morning wood, my doctor said that if those issues happen then we need to see a specialist. I feel my levels should be on the higher side seeing that im not that old.


My only guess at this moment is luteinizing hormone issues or my nuts are just not producing enough. A buddy of mine who is 26 yrs old levels are 600. I feel that my general doctor does not care that much, so i want to ask for a referral to see a specialist. If i get my blood done again, which things should i ask for specifically in my blood work documents or ask the doctor to check for? i never asked to see where my estrogen was at before so i may ask for that information as well.

Because my low T i feel that sarms might not be as much help and i would rather much use sarms when my overall T levels are in better check. Maybe i am overthinking it, but thats just how i feel. I know sarms such as Rad140 might be of some assistance, but not sure to what extent and how high would it raise my T.

thank you guys. I hope to see Dylan in the comments.

please post these questions in the proper forum area bro... the main forum is not for this purpose

your probably not going to find a doctor who will prescribe trt at 400 levels... its going to be difficult... there's always one out of 100 out there who actually grasps the concepts here but generally, your more hard pressed to find one... its unfortunate but that's how it is... you can keep trying and you can stress or over stress the symptoms your having and make it sound even worse but the convincing is up to you... noone can really help you with that... you either have the skills at that or you don't... otherwise, i would consider self administering... im sorry but thats too low... i dont care what anyone says... thats not where you should be at your age and the cause is all hypothetical... i can't diagnose that nor can anyone else here and if someone here tells you different, they are flat out wrong and out of line... you need many tests conducted, a review of personal history etc... anyone claiming to know the cause otherwise is full of shit and you would be of great benefit to not hear it... my recommendation is to start self administering... you can easily get your own test... after that, you can run whatever cycle you like but i would address this first... if your opposed to that, you can definitely try RAD to help boost you up... i can see it getting you in the mid 500's at least... you would feel better but essentially, i prefer being in the 600-700 range... you never know how you feel until you get to these levels... that's my best advice to you... RAD with gw, sr and mk677 would be optimal as none of the others cause any suppression whatsoever and can definitely help your overall performance as well..

 

[RickRock]

Well technically, you are in normal range, but I would say your numbers aren't exactly ideal either, especially considering your age.

The good news is that you aren't real low or anything. I would explore avenues to raise your natural levels into a better range before resorting to TRT, since if you raised it just 100 points you would be in fairly decent shape. Regardless your levels aren't that bad that you need immediate attention. I doubt you'd notice much of anything raising it a little, especially if you aren't experiencing any problems.

What I would do is run your sarms cycle like you were planning, then run an extensive PCT afterwards to see if you can get your levels back into range. Here is a good stack for you

http://pureessenceresearch.com/product/ultra-recomp-stack-12-weeks-2/

1-12 lgd-4033 10 mg day dosed once a day in the a.m.
1-12 S4 50 mg day... split doses... 25 mg in the a.m. and 25 mg in the p.m.
1-12 GW-510516 (CARDARINE) 20 mg day… dosed all at once 30 minutes before workout…
1-12 RAD-140 20mg day dosed once a day in the a.m.

After the cycle I would run a FULL PCT instead of a mini PCT because of your situation in trying to raise your test levels.

http://pureessenceresearch.com/product/platinum-pct-stack/

Clomid 50/50/25/25
Nolva 40/40/20/20
Aromasin 12.5mg EOD
MK-2866 25mg ED
GW 20mg ED

 

[punkpwnzor]

Ive got a friend that was in a nearly identical situation. His T was reasonable but he kept saying Low T (to support his reasoning) and also did not have any of the normal sides for low T. He ended up "having a conversation with himself" and determined that he had pretty much decided to try AAS and was ultimately just looking for the info that would support this. Not saying that is you OP but just something to think on. Personally I wouldnt consider 400 Low T (although it is definitely not on the high side) but I would continue to try and see if there is something suppressing you because it could perhaps be higher naturally. Obviously Im no doctor and there are tons of other variables so TRT might ultimately be a great option. TRT is a lifelong commitment and should not be taken lightly..........it could be a wonderful decision or a hassle for you. Just be very sure when you make that decision.

I would be curious to hear more about your training and diet (both current and past). Your height/weight would lead me to believe that you may be able to make some pretty decent gains with some adjustments there. Probably not the answer you were looking for.

Thanks for the response. I been training for about 2 yrs consistently. Diet at the moment is mainly maintaining my weight. I used to be overweight before i got into lifting and fixed that issue. got to a lean 140 and then reversed diet out of that. I been lean bulking for a while but right now cutting back a bit because i gained a little too much fast haha. In regards to me wanting a reasoning for using AAS, it wasnt so much that i wanted to jump right on because i think the idea of pinning myself is annoying. I just felt from having low/normal T that would hinder my progress in building lean mass and could benefit from higher/normal range. That is why i was considering sarms first and also its a lot easier to take.

 

[punkpwnzor]

please post these questions in the proper forum area bro... the main forum is not for this purpose

your probably not going to find a doctor who will prescribe trt at 400 levels... its going to be difficult... there's always one out of 100 out there who actually grasps the concepts here but generally, your more hard pressed to find one... its unfortunate but that's how it is... you can keep trying and you can stress or over stress the symptoms your having and make it sound even worse but the convincing is up to you... noone can really help you with that... you either have the skills at that or you don't... otherwise, i would consider self administering... im sorry but thats too low... i dont care what anyone says... thats not where you should be at your age and the cause is all hypothetical... i can't diagnose that nor can anyone else here and if someone here tells you different, they are flat out wrong and out of line... you need many tests conducted, a review of personal history etc... anyone claiming to know the cause otherwise is full of shit and you would be of great benefit to not hear it... my recommendation is to start self administering... you can easily get your own test... after that, you can run whatever cycle you like but i would address this first... if your opposed to that, you can definitely try RAD to help boost you up... i can see it getting you in the mid 500's at least... you would feel better but essentially, i prefer being in the 600-700 range... you never know how you feel until you get to these levels... that's my best advice to you... RAD with gw, sr and mk677 would be optimal as none of the others cause any suppression whatsoever and can definitely help your overall performance as well..

Sorry about that, i wasnt sure where i was supposed to post. I will try to be more careful next time

Thank you thou for the response and after reading it, you are right.

 

[DylanGemelli]

Sorry about that, i wasnt sure where i was supposed to post. I will try to be more careful next time

Thank you thou for the response and after reading it, you are right.

no need to be sorry bro, you didnt know... just making sure you do for the future... i can help you set everything up in terms of what to run etc... there's plenty of sponsor here you can get your test from... 175mg per week of test cypionate will be perfect for you... then you can implement sarms with your trt...

 

[punkpwnzor]

no need to be sorry bro, you didnt know... just making sure you do for the future... i can help you set everything up in terms of what to run etc... there's plenty of sponsor here you can get your test from... 175mg per week of test cypionate will be perfect for you... then you can implement sarms with your trt...

My issue with going with ped is my complete Ignorance of self administrating haha. Pinning I can do but know how much to draw into the needle and where to place kind of worries me. Would you say maybe running a conservative cycle of test, hcg and something for estrogen be inexpensive in comparison to running a cycle of sarms? 175mg of test seems conservative and be a good gauge to see what my levels end up at. Like you said I might not know how I feel in higher range, better to start off small then go massive dosages.

How long long could I run this cycle before pct and would it matter of the brands I use of gear.

 

[RickRock]

My issue with going with ped is my complete Ignorance of self administrating haha. Pinning I can do but know how much to draw into the needle and where to place kind of worries me. Would you say maybe running a conservative cycle of test, hcg and something for estrogen be inexpensive in comparison to running a cycle of sarms? 175mg of test seems conservative and be a good gauge to see what my levels end up at. Like you said I might not know how I feel in higher range, better to start off small then go massive dosages.

How long long could I run this cycle before pct and would it matter of the brands I use of gear.

I honestly wouldnt bother with the HCG if you are planning on going the TRT route, but the rest of your plan sounds reasonable. At TRT doses you shouldn't need much AI if any at all either.

 

[Grapple38]

Background - 27yr old man, 5'9 @ 160LBS, no prior AAS OR pro-hormones. Just in case if matters.

So i been waiting patiently to jump on sarms and just have not made the move yet. My main reason for even considering sarms is to make some muscle gains, but i feel i need to get my health in order. Early this year i was getting some blood work done and i was really curious to see where my T levels were at. They landed in the low normal range of 421. Doctor said that was fine and nothing to consider TRT. In my head i felt that maybe they needed to be a bit on the higher side for overall health.

Then i figured why not use a T booster that was DAA based along with some other ingredients. After running that for a month, i did my blood work again to see if their was a boost and surprisingly enough my T levels drop to 374. Very odd at the least. So after my doctor saw the results from that result, he did agree that it was odd that it drop almost 50 points. Said that it could be due to my Vitamin d3 deficiency (which i was) and wanted to see my blood work again before sending me to a specialist. My 3rd and final results shows my T levels went from 374 to 397ng/dl of TEST and Free test was 19.5 (range was 9.3-26.5)

At this current point in time and after speaking to some in the industry, ranges closer to 1000ng/dl of TEST is optimal for muscle gains and probably other health factors. I assume that ranges where i am currently arent that great and could be better. Some things to note are, i do not have any bad side effects of low T like erection issues or not having morning wood, my doctor said that if those issues happen then we need to see a specialist. I feel my levels should be on the higher side seeing that im not that old.


My only guess at this moment is luteinizing hormone issues or my nuts are just not producing enough. A buddy of mine who is 26 yrs old levels are 600. I feel that my general doctor does not care that much, so i want to ask for a referral to see a specialist. If i get my blood done again, which things should i ask for specifically in my blood work documents or ask the doctor to check for? i never asked to see where my estrogen was at before so i may ask for that information as well.

Because my low T i feel that sarms might not be as much help and i would rather much use sarms when my overall T levels are in better check. Maybe i am overthinking it, but thats just how i feel. I know sarms such as Rad140 might be of some assistance, but not sure to what extent and how high would it raise my T.

thank you guys. I hope to see Dylan in the comments.

I'm on TRT right now and I started when I was in my mid-thirties. My Dr. would not treat me due to me being in the "normal" range which was around 300. The problem with Doc's with that line of thinking is that they treat numbers, not the patient. They are also few and far between that actually know what the hell they are doing or are just not confident in treating someone with low T. I obviously had signs and symptoms of Low T because i had weak erections and rarely morning wood. So I went to a male hormone specialist who did a bunch of testing on me. I was a unique case because and had to be put on a special protocol. The optimal range for a guy in his mid-30's is between 700-900 for T according to him. He checked my free and total T, bio-available T, Estradiol (extra sensitive), Sex hormone binding globulin, and DHEA sulfate. You may need to see an integrative medicine Doc or anti-aging specialist if you want to monitor it. The male hormone specialists are hard to find too but the other two are more common now, depending on what area you live in too. So there are options out there for you.

 

[punkpwnzor]

I honestly wouldnt bother with the HCG if you are planning on going the TRT route, but the rest of your plan sounds reasonable. At TRT doses you shouldn't need much AI if any at all either.

Wouldn't the hcg prevent my nuts from shrinking? The reason I mentioned an AI was because I am not sure how estrogen prone I am. And for reading some logs on people running 200mg of test with no AI, they would have ED issue even though libido was thru the roof. And the issue was high estrogen. You probably know more than me but that's is just my understanding.

 

[punkpwnzor]

I'm on TRT right now and I started when I was in my mid-thirties. My Dr. would not treat me due to me being in the "normal" range which was around 300. The problem with Doc's with that line of thinking is that they treat numbers, not the patient. They are also few and far between that actually know what the hell they are doing or are just not confident in treating someone with low T. I obviously had signs and symptoms of Low T because i had weak erections and rarely morning wood. So I went to a male hormone specialist who did a bunch of testing on me. I was a unique case because and had to be put on a special protocol. The optimal range for a guy in his mid-30's is between 700-900 for T according to him. He checked my free and total T, bio-available T, Estradiol (extra sensitive), Sex hormone binding globulin, and DHEA sulfate. You may need to see an integrative medicine Doc or anti-aging specialist if you want to monitor it. The male hormone specialists are hard to find too but the other two are more common now, depending on what area you live in too. So there are options out there for you.

Ya their isn't many options especially if I am trying to get my insurance to cover it. I believe my insurance thru the affordable care act, blue shield will only cover so much. To even be considers I would need numbers probably 250 and the max dosaging allowed thru my insurance would probably only be 200 a week. Anything higher I will have to pay out of pocket

 

[TexasTrash]

Wouldn't the hcg prevent my nuts from shrinking? The reason I mentioned an AI was because I am not sure how estrogen prone I am. And for reading some logs on people running 200mg of test with no AI, they would have ED issue even though libido was thru the roof. And the issue was high estrogen. You probably know more than me but that's is just my understanding.

Make sure you have an AI on hand. Bloods later will confirm how well you are controlling it and then you can adjust the dosage.

As for HCG, yes it will prevent shrinking and it should prevent infertility but that seems to be pretty case specific. You will hear different opinions on desensitization that occurs with using HCG. It seems that this comes with higher dosages and/or using it for an extended period of time. Personally I choose to run HCG, at very reasonable dosages, in "blasts" with "break periods" where Im not on it. It seems that many guys arent too concerned with shrinkage and/or infertility so they dont mess with HCG. Personally the shrinkage doesnt bother me and I do it more for fertility issues.

 

[punkpwnzor]

Make sure you have an AI on hand. Bloods later will confirm how well you are controlling it and then you can adjust the dosage.

As for HCG, yes it will prevent shrinking and it should prevent infertility but that seems to be pretty case specific. You will hear different opinions on desensitization that occurs with using HCG. It seems that this comes with higher dosages and/or using it for an extended period of time. Personally I choose to run HCG, at very reasonable dosages, in "blasts" with "break periods" where Im not on it. It seems that many guys arent too concerned with shrinkage and/or infertility so they dont mess with HCG. Personally the shrinkage doesnt bother me and I do it more for fertility issues.

Ya that's my concern, I don't want to get bitch tits. Ya i would need more Info on hcg because I guess the shrinking would worry me at first but then being infertile might concern me later on.

Would a higher elevation of test, make it easier to diet and preserve more muscle? My overall goal would be to recomp or diet down and then do a bigger cycle. I feel that a simple cycle of test to get my numbers higher could benefit me regardless of dieting or bulking.

 

[DylanGemelli]

Wouldn't the hcg prevent my nuts from shrinking? The reason I mentioned an AI was because I am not sure how estrogen prone I am. And for reading some logs on people running 200mg of test with no AI, they would have ED issue even though libido was thru the roof. And the issue was high estrogen. You probably know more than me but that's is just my understanding.

you do realize that hcg can not only cause suppression with extended use but also increase estrogen? does not sound like what your wanting does it? if your going to sue it, 4 weeks is PLENTY and all that is necessary or that i would recommend at 1000 ius week then discontinue use... you should always have an ai on hand anytime your using anything that can convert to estrogen, which testosterone can, even at a low dose... the way its used is person to person specific and you must decide what you need with your body response

 

[punkpwnzor]

If I were to run let's say rad140, gw and sr or mk, would I need to run a pct after 12 weeks. If no pct, then how soon after can I run those sarms again? Thank you Dylan, you give me a lot of insight to help me make the best choices. Trying to find a good deal on a bundle for those main three sarms, rad, gw and sr.

 

[TexasTrash]

you do realize that hcg can not only cause suppression with extended use but also increase estrogen? does not sound like what your wanting does it? if your going to sue it, 4 weeks is PLENTY and all that is necessary or that i would recommend at 1000 ius week then discontinue use... you should always have an ai on hand anytime your using anything that can convert to estrogen, which testosterone can, even at a low dose... the way its used is person to person specific and you must decide what you need with your body response

I believe Dylan is dead on here. Most of what I have read says that HCG is likely to increase E2 more than Test at TRT doses so you must consider that plus the point on sides being person specific is one to you must accept. If you look on this board you will find guys at relatively low TRT doses taking an ai daily while others will run cycles at triple the TRT amount with no AI as they dont need it. Keep an eye on symptoms and get blood tests.

 

[RickRock]

Wouldn't the hcg prevent my nuts from shrinking? The reason I mentioned an AI was because I am not sure how estrogen prone I am. And for reading some logs on people running 200mg of test with no AI, they would have ED issue even though libido was thru the roof. And the issue was high estrogen. You probably know more than me but that's is just my understanding.

There's really no point in using hcg if you stay on test. It helps keep the nuts full, but that really doesn't mean anything, and some people don't get much atrophy. I never did, and I've been on nonstop since 2013. It also has some side effects like increasing estrogen etc, that you don't want

As for the AI, it just depends on the person. Some people are more estrogen sensitive than others, so you should have it on hand and figure out what you need to control it. For example me personally, I don't need to run an AI at all on 200mg of test. Even at a low dose of AI I crush my estrogen easily. Everyone is different

 

[RickRock]

If I were to run let's say rad140, gw and sr or mk, would I need to run a pct after 12 weeks. If no pct, then how soon after can I run those sarms again? Thank you Dylan, you give me a lot of insight to help me make the best choices. Trying to find a good deal on a bundle for those main three sarms, rad, gw and sr.

It depends bro. If you are on trt you obviously don't need to PCT. If you are not on TRT, the. You will need to do a mini pct of clomid 25mg per day afterwards.

As for a package deal, just get the endurance stack and add rad to it. Use Xmas discount code for 35% off through New Years

http://pureessenceresearch.com/product/endurance-stack-12-weeks-2/

1-12 GW-510516 (CARDARINE) 20 mg day… dosed all at once 30 minutes before workout…
1-12 SR-9009 30mg per day (5mg dosed 6 times every 2-3 hours)

 

[Androman]

It depends bro. If you are on trt you obviously don't need to PCT. If you are not on TRT, the. You will need to do a mini pct of clomid 25mg per day afterwards.

As for a package deal, just get the endurance stack and add rad to it. Use Xmas discount code for 35% off through New Years

http://pureessenceresearch.com/product/endurance-stack-12-weeks-2/

1-12 GW-510516 (CARDARINE) 20 mg day… dosed all at once 30 minutes before workout…
1-12 SR-9009 30mg per day (5mg dosed 6 times every 2-3 hours)

Doesnt HCG keep you from going sterile? My nuts dont shrink that much but I use HCG because I want kids in the future.