Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

[deathbyduck87]

Ok so I have noticed a ton of guys posting on PIP problems and injection site issues so hopefully this will help. I'll post pictures of the different muscle groups and the volume of oil that should be injected without irritation.

First off I'll start with the gluteal injections. In this case you have 2 options. Dorsalglutial and ventrogluteal.

Dorsalglutial being the most common but most dangerous and painful due to the closeness of the peripheral and sciatic nerves as well as the gluteal artery. The likelihood of hitting the gluteal artery is very low however it is very possible to irritate it or damage the peripheral nerves. Basically the best place to shoot is the upper outer quadrant, which is extremely broad and can cause a shit load of pain especially if you are pushing more than 3ccs of oil. If you're putting a lot of oil in this area its going to settle much lower than intended and most likely toward the inner part of your glute due to gravity.

Ventrogluteal injections are actually much safer than dorsoglutal because of the lack of major nerves and blood vessels. Most people who don't use the area is because they just don't know how to find it and are scared of missing. Even if you miss the ventrogluteal muscle by a half inch you still are much less likely to cause any issues like with the dorsoglutal site. The ventrogluteal muscle stabilizes you when you stand. So you find the middle part of your hip shift your weight from leg to leg and feel or watch for the muscle that pops up. You can use the index finger on the top of the ass crack and the thumb out to the hip to get you in the ballpark. When you find the muscle push on it, feel around and find the spot with the least amount of sensation and biggest amount of muscle and shoot. Remember that even if you are doing everything perfectly that if you are pushing more than 3 or 4 mls of oil in any big muscle group you can still have some pain because it's pushing the muscle fibers apart and irritating the hell out of everything. That being said at least you're not going to be around any major nerves or blood vessels which means that the pain will be much much severe and manageable.

Quads: rectus femoral and vastus lateralis (tear drop)

Rectus Femous or the outer portion of the quad is probably my favorite site due to the amount of oil you can safely inject, lack of PIP, and lack of major blood vessels. If you are lean you don't need to go any deeper than 5/8" 25g needles to get a completely painless injection. Personally I do my injections about 1/4 of the way up my quad that way the oil has a little bit of room to settle but mainly stays right there. A lot of guys will say the outer 3rd portion of the quad butI like to flex the muscle beforehand and really pick my site or the biggest portion of the outer quad. At no point have I ever seen blood when I have aspirated or have I bled post injection. 3 or 4 cc/mls should be extremely well tolerated in the rectus femoris site.

Vastus lateralis (tear drop) injections are pretty straight forward. Right above the outer knee. Personally I don't like the site because it's not a great spot for larger amounts of oil. It would be great for less than 2cc injections but I wouldn't do more than 1 1/2 just to be on the cautious side. Again no major nerves or blood vessels but not a get spot for a large injections.

Delts

I know that a lot of you guys delt pinners. I'm not personally because of the nerve that wraps around the inner part of the shoulder. You can get a good amount of oil in there, especially if you are a big guy, but I hate irritating the nerve. If you are good at hitting the perfect spot then by all means go for it. Typically when I rarely do pin delts I prefer the outer back portion. I'm not a really big guy and hitting my preferred spot is hard for me so I can only imagine how much of a bitch it would be for the huge fellas. Anyway the best method to get an idea of the area where you need to be is find the bone at the top of the delt and use your index and middle fingers put together, to find the best spot. Some guys shoot directly in the outer delt some in the back part, and I have even seen inner delt injections. As long as you don't irritate the nerve it's a great spot for 3 or even 4 ccs and up. Worst case scenario is not being able to lift your arm for a couple days.

Places not to inject. Tris, calves and traps. Yeah I understand that if you are pinning every day or even twice a day you are going to need somewhere to shoot, especially if you are knotted up or have crazy pip in a few spots. Traps are a bad spot because 1 you really aren't going to get a lot of oil in and 2 its gonna hurt like hell. Tries and calves are painful long muscles that are used a shit load. You can't or shouldn't put oil in the tris because of the amount of blood vessels. Calves would be crazy painful and if you knot them up good luck walking around. If I had to recommend an emergency area I'd say use pecs. Just grab a chunk of meat and shoot. I wouldn't do a ton of oil in the pecs but it's definitely less dangerous than tris or calves.

I realize that a lot of people have their own way of doing things and it is not my intention to change what works. If you are having pip or trouble pinning trying some of these suggestions and see if it helps. The illustrations I added aren't the most detailed but they are really good for getting in the ballpark for ventrogluteal injections and for the quads. If I had one piece of advice I would recommend over any other it would be to try to get away from the dorsoglutal injections and learn how to locate the ventrogluteal muscle. I see more problems with the upper outer quadrant injections than any other and I hate knowing that there are guys losing time in the gym from a needle prick!

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[BigBusiness]

Very nice bro!!! I think a lot people here will find this very helpful.

 

[cmb5017]

I dont agree with the delt or thigh illustrations. The delt is way to high and the thigh one us way to low. We've done many threads on the subject. Thats the first illistrations ive ever seen indicating goin that high on the delt and thst low on the quad. .not saying its wrong. Just saying ive done many hours of study on this subject and thats the first time ive seen that type of illistration

 

[RickRock]

Thanks for providing this valuable information brother. This offers a valuable resource for those with injection site issues. I don't necessarily agree with the quad illustration for that being an ideal site, as I would typically inject high than that on the outer quad, but nonetheless this is quality info. Thanks for sharing!

 

[BigBusiness]

The delt picuture is pretty close, but the quad is definitely to low!! The outer quad should be pinned 3/4 of the way up to the hip. I never pinned the front of my quad tho

 

[deathbyduck87]

Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

Thanks for providing this valuable information brother. This offers a valuable resource for those with injection site issues. I don't necessarily agree with the quad illustration for that being an ideal site, as I would typically inject high than that on the outer quad, but nonetheless this is quality info. Thanks for sharing!

That's why I said that they weren't the best illustrations in my post. I don't inject there myself. Plus I don't inject in the middle of my quad. However I like how it illustrate the muscle fibers. The ventrogluteal muscle picture is probably the closest to being accurate. That was the biggest reason for the post. As far as the anatomy of the illustrations they are dead on as far as nerve locations.

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[deathbyduck87]

Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

I dont agree with the delt or thigh illustrations. The delt is way to high and the thigh one us way to low. We've done many threads on the subject. Thats the first illistrations ive ever seen indicating goin that high on the delt and thst low on the quad. .not saying its wrong. Just saying ive done many hours of study on this subject and thats the first time ive seen that type of illistration

I agree with you on the delt and quad. Like I said in the post I go down two finger lengths because dead center and you're on the nerve. I knew that the illustrations of the sites were off but hopefully what I wrote was more to the point. This is actually a model used by an oncology site for im protocol. As long as you don't pin dead center of the delt it's all good. I really liked the nerve illustrations though. I should have been more clear on the fact that the sites are what I didn't like aside from the ventrogluteal.

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[cmb5017]

Yea I pin lower to. But ive also pinned dead center n never hit a nerve. I use 1inch pin though

 

[deathbyduck87]

Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

Yea I pin lower to. But ive also pinned dead center n never hit a nerve. I use 1inch pin though

Honestly I don't ever use anything longer than 3/4 on quads. As long as you aren't pinning super deep and on the inner part you're good. There just not that much of a subcutaneous layer to the quads. The center sub q layer tends to have more nerve endings so obviously it's going to be more painful but not as technically dangerous as a dorsoglutal injection. As long as the injection doesn't hurt after you get through the sub q layer all is well. The actual muscle doesn't hurt it's getting there and irritating the nerves around the area. But I tend to hit the muscle about 3/4 of the way down and on the far outside portion and z-track. If you get the skin tight you don't feel a thing.

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[cmb5017]

Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

Yea I pin lower to. But ive also pinned dead center n never hit a nerve. I use 1inch pin though

Honestly I don't ever use anything longer than 3/4 on quads. As long as you aren't pinning super deep and on the inner part you're good. There just not that much of a subcutaneous layer to the quads. The center sub q layer tends to have more nerve endings so obviously it's going to be more painful but not as technically dangerous as a dorsoglutal injection. As long as the injection doesn't hurt after you get through the sub q layer all is well. The actual muscle doesn't hurt it's getting there and irritating the nerves around the area. But I tend to hit the muscle about 3/4 of the way down and on the far outside portion and z-track. If you get the skin tight you don't feel a thing.

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3/4 on the. Quad? Damn dont let rick hear that lol he likes to get wayyyyy down in there lol

 

[deathbyduck87]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

Yea I pin lower to. But ive also pinned dead center n never hit a nerve. I use 1inch pin though

Honestly I don't ever use anything longer than 3/4 on quads. As long as you aren't pinning super deep and on the inner part you're good. There just not that much of a subcutaneous layer to the quads. The center sub q layer tends to have more nerve endings so obviously it's going to be more painful but not as technically dangerous as a dorsoglutal injection. As long as the injection doesn't hurt after you get through the sub q layer all is well. The actual muscle doesn't hurt it's getting there and irritating the nerves around the area. But I tend to hit the muscle about 3/4 of the way down and on the far outside portion and z-track. If you get the skin tight you don't feel a thing.

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3/4 on the. Quad? Damn dont let rick hear that lol he likes to get wayyyyy down in there lol

Haha. I'm super lean and I have a lot of nerve damage in my legs. As long as I'm in the muscle I'm good to go. My bloods are perfect so there's no need to get too deep. It's all personal preference. That's why I don't even try to give needle gauge advice. I have been a volunteer paramedic and emt for years and I stick to what works.

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[cmb5017]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

Yea I pin lower to. But ive also pinned dead center n never hit a nerve. I use 1inch pin though

Honestly I don't ever use anything longer than 3/4 on quads. As long as you aren't pinning super deep and on the inner part you're good. There just not that much of a subcutaneous layer to the quads. The center sub q layer tends to have more nerve endings so obviously it's going to be more painful but not as technically dangerous as a dorsoglutal injection. As long as the injection doesn't hurt after you get through the sub q layer all is well. The actual muscle doesn't hurt it's getting there and irritating the nerves around the area. But I tend to hit the muscle about 3/4 of the way down and on the far outside portion and z-track. If you get the skin tight you don't feel a thing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

3/4 on the. Quad? Damn dont let rick hear that lol he likes to get wayyyyy down in there lol

Haha. I'm super lean and I have a lot of nerve damage in my legs. As long as I'm in the muscle I'm good to go. My bloods are perfect so there's no need to get too deep. It's all personal preference. That's why I don't even try to give needle gauge advice. I have been a volunteer paramedic and emt for years and I stick to what works.

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Is ur nerve damage from injecting?

 

[deathbyduck87]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: Injection sites/preventing PIP and a little anatomy

Yea I pin lower to. But ive also pinned dead center n never hit a nerve. I use 1inch pin though

Honestly I don't ever use anything longer than 3/4 on quads. As long as you aren't pinning super deep and on the inner part you're good. There just not that much of a subcutaneous layer to the quads. The center sub q layer tends to have more nerve endings so obviously it's going to be more painful but not as technically dangerous as a dorsoglutal injection. As long as the injection doesn't hurt after you get through the sub q layer all is well. The actual muscle doesn't hurt it's getting there and irritating the nerves around the area. But I tend to hit the muscle about 3/4 of the way down and on the far outside portion and z-track. If you get the skin tight you don't feel a thing.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

3/4 on the. Quad? Damn dont let rick hear that lol he likes to get wayyyyy down in there lol

Haha. I'm super lean and I have a lot of nerve damage in my legs. As long as I'm in the muscle I'm good to go. My bloods are perfect so there's no need to get too deep. It's all personal preference. That's why I don't even try to give needle gauge advice. I have been a volunteer paramedic and emt for years and I stick to what works.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Is ur nerve damage from injecting?

No it's from having a Pontiac roll over me bro lmao. I have never gotten close to a nerve pinning. The worst experience I've had was pinning a delt. I went to low and put like 3mls right on the nerve that wraps around the shoulder. Other than that, which this was years ago, I can't remember the last time I had pip or any problems.

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[cmb5017]

I guess a Pontiac will do it lol

 

[Saiyan]

Great description bro. Very informative.

 

[prestigealaska]

Ok so I have noticed a ton of guys posting on PIP problems and injection site issues so hopefully this will help. I'll post pictures of the different muscle groups and the volume of oil that should be injected without irritation.

First off I'll start with the gluteal injections. In this case you have 2 options. Dorsalglutial and ventrogluteal.

Dorsalglutial being the most common but most dangerous and painful due to the closeness of the peripheral and sciatic nerves as well as the gluteal artery. The likelihood of hitting the gluteal artery is very low however it is very possible to irritate it or damage the peripheral nerves. Basically the best place to shoot is the upper outer quadrant, which is extremely broad and can cause a shit load of pain especially if you are pushing more than 3ccs of oil. If you're putting a lot of oil in this area its going to settle much lower than intended and most likely toward the inner part of your glute due to gravity.

Ventrogluteal injections are actually much safer than dorsoglutal because of the lack of major nerves and blood vessels. Most people who don't use the area is because they just don't know how to find it and are scared of missing. Even if you miss the ventrogluteal muscle by a half inch you still are much less likely to cause any issues like with the dorsoglutal site. The ventrogluteal muscle stabilizes you when you stand. So you find the middle part of your hip shift your weight from leg to leg and feel or watch for the muscle that pops up. You can use the index finger on the top of the ass crack and the thumb out to the hip to get you in the ballpark. When you find the muscle push on it, feel around and find the spot with the least amount of sensation and biggest amount of muscle and shoot. Remember that even if you are doing everything perfectly that if you are pushing more than 3 or 4 mls of oil in any big muscle group you can still have some pain because it's pushing the muscle fibers apart and irritating the hell out of everything. That being said at least you're not going to be around any major nerves or blood vessels which means that the pain will be much much severe and manageable.

Quads: rectus femoral and vastus lateralis (tear drop)

Rectus Femous or the outer portion of the quad is probably my favorite site due to the amount of oil you can safely inject, lack of PIP, and lack of major blood vessels. If you are lean you don't need to go any deeper than 5/8" 25g needles to get a completely painless injection. Personally I do my injections about 1/4 of the way up my quad that way the oil has a little bit of room to settle but mainly stays right there. A lot of guys will say the outer 3rd portion of the quad butI like to flex the muscle beforehand and really pick my site or the biggest portion of the outer quad. At no point have I ever seen blood when I have aspirated or have I bled post injection. 3 or 4 cc/mls should be extremely well tolerated in the rectus femoris site.

Vastus lateralis (tear drop) injections are pretty straight forward. Right above the outer knee. Personally I don't like the site because it's not a great spot for larger amounts of oil. It would be great for less than 2cc injections but I wouldn't do more than 1 1/2 just to be on the cautious side. Again no major nerves or blood vessels but not a get spot for a large injections.

Delts

I know that a lot of you guys delt pinners. I'm not personally because of the nerve that wraps around the inner part of the shoulder. You can get a good amount of oil in there, especially if you are a big guy, but I hate irritating the nerve. If you are good at hitting the perfect spot then by all means go for it. Typically when I rarely do pin delts I prefer the outer back portion. I'm not a really big guy and hitting my preferred spot is hard for me so I can only imagine how much of a bitch it would be for the huge fellas. Anyway the best method to get an idea of the area where you need to be is find the bone at the top of the delt and use your index and middle fingers put together, to find the best spot. Some guys shoot directly in the outer delt some in the back part, and I have even seen inner delt injections. As long as you don't irritate the nerve it's a great spot for 3 or even 4 ccs and up. Worst case scenario is not being able to lift your arm for a couple days.

Places not to inject. Tris, calves and traps. Yeah I understand that if you are pinning every day or even twice a day you are going to need somewhere to shoot, especially if you are knotted up or have crazy pip in a few spots. Traps are a bad spot because 1 you really aren't going to get a lot of oil in and 2 its gonna hurt like hell. Tries and calves are painful long muscles that are used a shit load. You can't or shouldn't put oil in the tris because of the amount of blood vessels. Calves would be crazy painful and if you knot them up good luck walking around. If I had to recommend an emergency area I'd say use pecs. Just grab a chunk of meat and shoot. I wouldn't do a ton of oil in the pecs but it's definitely less dangerous than tris or calves.

I realize that a lot of people have their own way of doing things and it is not my intention to change what works. If you are having pip or trouble pinning trying some of these suggestions and see if it helps. The illustrations I added aren't the most detailed but they are really good for getting in the ballpark for ventrogluteal injections and for the quads. If I had one piece of advice I would recommend over any other it would be to try to get away from the dorsoglutal injections and learn how to locate the ventrogluteal muscle. I see more problems with the upper outer quadrant injections than any other and I hate knowing that there are guys losing time in the gym from a needle prick!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

Thanks for this post deathbyduck87 - a wealth of info here and a great conversation was generated! Good on you!

 

[r2truth]

Thanks for the info bro, nice read.

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