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Overtraining

SpikedEggnog

Active member
everyone has probably heard the term overtraining before. and heard the millions of people who say overtraining is bad, you cant grow if you train too much, etc. etc. I am always trying to research and read about new/different things, and lately I came across a dude on Youtube (i know a dude on youtube lol). Hear me out first..90% of the people on youtube are idiots, BUT the more i heard what this dude had to say the more it made sense to me, not just from personal experience but on a scientific level as well. basically overtraining to build muscle.

now ive seen dylan talk about importance of rest days and rick talk about myostatin, etc. so this is all based around that and more. im not going to go into detail because i am still reading and i cant remember all the information i read BUT it basically has to do with myostatin levels, rest days, nuclei, satellite cells, mitochondria, glycogen capacity, fascia tissue, mTor, etc.

this involves high reps and high volume training. you can apply this to one bodypart or your entire body as well.

here is an example run down. lets say you want to bring up your biceps because they are lagging. keep in mind you dont train the body part for hours on end, you train to get maximum pump and stretching and engorge the muscle. this can be done in as little as 10 min a day. rest time between sets is minimal to zero

you would train biceps everyday with high volume/high reps for 2-4 weeks, then after that period is over you would take 1 week off for that bodypart. so for biceps that means no biceps OR back. then after the rest period you would continue your normal bicep training with heavier weights. in theory (AND practice) this is supposed to explode your muscle growth because of several factors. how it is set up perfectly primes your muscles for growth, there is a prep phase, which is the 2-4 week, engorging muscles with blood (lactic acid flushing and keeping myostatin levels low), stretching fascia tissue, increasing number of nucleus/satellite cells or mitochondria in cells, increased capillaries, then setting up for increased glycogen capacity to come during Resting Phase (detraining phase), and the muscle growth is after Rest phase when you continue heavy training. some of this can also explain Noob Gains and why you eventually slow down or plateau.

i probably left stuff out but that is the basic idea. NOW i want to lay down some examples of overtraining and how people with certain body parts they are known for actually "overtrained" them in the past. most people did this by accident without really knowing and ended up having massive bodyparts. as a matter of fact, most bodyparts people attribute to genetics may actually be overtraining from their younger years.

arnolds Biceps - everyone knows arnies biceps are some of the best, but is this pure genetics? DOUBTFUL. if anyone knows me, they would know i am not a fan of throwing the genetics card out. yes i believe genetics have a role BUT i believe the role is much much smaller then people portray. arnold had good genetics yes, but what i mean by that is his muscle shape, muscle bellies, attachments, how his physique flowed, his bone structure, etc. he looked like an average person before he really started lifting and roiding. I dont believe his Biceps are attributed to genetics i really think that is massive amounts of training over years and years. you find younger pics of him his biceps are puny. what we know for sure is arnold trained his biceps ALOT when he was younger. that was his favorite bodypart and he overtrained the CRAP out of his biceps. arnolds known for chest as well obviously, and he trained chest 2-3 x a week at one point, and frequently BBers in golden era trained chest and arms Twice a Week (not counting Back which hits Biceps again)

frank mcgraths forearms - when frank was in high school he said the girls liked big forearms, so to impress girls he used to do forearms everyday before school to come into school with a Pump.

johnny jacksons traps - the dude said when he was young he did a lot of wheelbarrow work, and to get it done faster he would load it extremely heavy, essentially heavy farmers walks. he also said when he was younger, to show off in the gym he would do heavy shrugs at the end of all his workouts. he ended up overdeveloping this crap out of his traps and he doesnt even train them anymore..

male gymnasts have massive upperbodies - all they do is rings and dip like motions and stuff EVERY DAY. they have some of the best upper bodies from "overtraining"


serge nubret - known for doing 135lbs on bench for an Hour straight.

countless NATURAL people as well too many to list them all.

but i have heard of a thai boy training muy thai carrying heavy buckets of water up a hill everyday to his master, his traps blew up like crazy.
heard of an old man who did Chin ups everyday before all of his workouts, his back blew the heck up
i know a dude who did bench press everyday in the gym, within 3 months his chest tris and front delts blew the heck up.
plenty of people in prison doing push ups and pull ups all day every day having MASSIVE upper bodies.


even me personally now that i think back, when i was younger i used to destroy my forearms. i posted pics earlier of my forearms for anyone who wants to see, they are 16". 2-3 x a week, ON TOP of doing shrugs, back, etc. which all work forearms even more. OVERTRAINING the CRAP out of them..they blew up so bad that now i cannot train them directly anymore. also my traps are another strong point, and i frequently did HEAVY shrugs combined with heavy drop sets with dumbells, lots of volume and full stretching, my traps blew the heck up. and i never even did deadlifts growing up, just shrugs.

the examples go on forever but the point has been made. rich piana actually made a video about "feeder workouts" for arm growth as well, this follows somewhat the same priniciples of this overtrainig method, which the dude coined it NUCLEUS OVERLOAD TRAINING. there is real validity to this despite what magazines or BBing "professionals" say or even what most "science" says.
 

Testdude63

Active member
Very good post, brother. A lot of people confuse overtraining with not allowing a certain muscle group adequate recovery. True overtraining syndrome is an overstimulation of the CNS for a prolonged period of time which results in detraining or backsliding. I agree and think prioritizing a lagging body part is a great way to stimulate more growth.

Again, nice post.
 

the force

Member
this makes some sense.. This sounds like something that is not quite "over training" because over training a state of burn out, this you might call say, hyper training for as it says there is a break after a few weeks and it can take a considerable amount of time to be over trained, a year, more maybe?

I would be totally down to try this.. it seems to me like an extension of some ideas Mike Mentzer pioneered back in the day.. I think it also has a psychological aspect built in too, we are mentally conditioned to so many things... like when you add those 2.5 plates,, and then you drop the bar on yourself... its mostly in your mind..

I would point out that there is a difference between resistance exercise (weights) and body weight exercise (gymnast) but still it does to me seem like a valid proposal... at the end of the day what matters is swelling the muscle with blood

when I do triceps I often do 50 reps of really light weight and it gets the blood going, I picked that up from a buddy, I never thought to extend this to other areas.. can you post a link to a sample routine or something?

Good read.. thanks for posting this. You can still be over-trained, it would not be wise to start thinking you cant.. I got bad advice once that led to a injury and physical therapy that involved not taking a rest day for working my calves.. they ended up like permanently contracted, very hard to walk and the way to release the contraction was to hyper stimulate them with very deep very painful massage, I never left without my shirt wet.. no not from sweating,, from crying it hurt so damn much...I think this concept, how one gets there may vary but just focusing on getting a good pump in essence it sounds solid..
 

SpikedEggnog

Active member
this makes some sense.. This sounds like something that is not quite "over training" because over training a state of burn out, this you might call say, hyper training for as it says there is a break after a few weeks and it can take a considerable amount of time to be over trained, a year, more maybe?

I would be totally down to try this.. it seems to me like an extension of some ideas Mike Mentzer pioneered back in the day.. I think it also has a psychological aspect built in too, we are mentally conditioned to so many things... like when you add those 2.5 plates,, and then you drop the bar on yourself... its mostly in your mind..

I would point out that there is a difference between resistance exercise (weights) and body weight exercise (gymnast) but still it does to me seem like a valid proposal... at the end of the day what matters is swelling the muscle with blood

when I do triceps I often do 50 reps of really light weight and it gets the blood going, I picked that up from a buddy, I never thought to extend this to other areas.. can you post a link to a sample routine or something?

Good read.. thanks for posting this. You can still be over-trained, it would not be wise to start thinking you cant.. I got bad advice once that led to a injury and physical therapy that involved not taking a rest day for working my calves.. they ended up like permanently contracted, very hard to walk and the way to release the contraction was to hyper stimulate them with very deep very painful massage, I never left without my shirt wet.. no not from sweating,, from crying it hurt so damn much...I think this concept, how one gets there may vary but just focusing on getting a good pump in essence it sounds solid..

definitely man, and although it would be considered bad by some because you are training the same body part everyday, the point is to Overload that specific muscle AND the key is to take the week of rest AFTER the overload, that i think is where people fail to realize the potential of overtraining as we know it. because of you think about it your body is getting slammed daily and it doesnt have time to fully recuperate BUT it is doing everything it can to keep up and to try and prepare for what it knows is coming (because its daily), so when it finally comes time to take a week of rest it give PLENTY of time for your body to full recover and increases your glycogen capacity even further with the fascia stretched, you should really should an increase in inches at this point BUT this is not the true muscle growth, this would be the preparation for the growth. when you start back up again, your cells would have more nucleus/mitochondria from overload training which more nucleus would = faster growth/replication of muscle cells and also more capillaries = more blood flow which = a bigger pump and more nutrients to muscles which again = faster growth. this would also explain why there is muscle memory, someone was big but they shrank, they could easily get as big as before a lot faster then a newcomer could get to that size because the person had the extra nuclei in cells (also satellite cells) and this is said to last for up to 10 years. so if you take off the gym for a year and lose your gains, you could bounce back way faster then the time it took for you to initally get there in the first place.

yes you can defnitely hurt yourself but for this particular method you stick to lighter weights. i wouldnt suggest using high volume with heavy weights for overtraining, that stresses the tendons/ligaments too much and can kill your joints or tear a muscle. For this we are basically chasing the PUMP for weeks

as far as the sample routine that would be based on what body parts are lagging, unless you wanted to do a full body routine. for me personally i will do a chest and biceps routine soon, but chest will hit my front delts and triceps so its even better..
 

SpikedEggnog

Active member
Very good post, brother. A lot of people confuse overtraining with not allowing a certain muscle group adequate recovery. True overtraining syndrome is an overstimulation of the CNS for a prolonged period of time which results in detraining or backsliding. I agree and think prioritizing a lagging body part is a great way to stimulate more growth.

Again, nice post.

exactly it is true that it can result in problems long term especially with heavy weights. you also need to have your diet in check, too low cals can wreck your recovery. and i think the main reason why this method can be substantial is because of the recovery period. taking a week off is the perfect time to recover, increase glycogen stores, etc. the recovery is what i think is missing when people overtrain. they overtrain for months and months and never take breaks. plus they also use heavy weights which can kill joints or cause injuries. this is basically chasing the pump, massive stretching and lactic acid buildup, etc ALL this primes you for rest period which primes you for the continued work, which in turn = faster muscle growth then before.
 

GTFORMULA

Banned
Nice post and I believe in a similar method. I think it would be hard to over train to the point of no gains.
 

RickRock

Community Leader
VIP Moderator
everyone has probably heard the term overtraining before. and heard the millions of people who say overtraining is bad, you cant grow if you train too much, etc. etc. I am always trying to research and read about new/different things, and lately I came across a dude on Youtube (i know a dude on youtube lol). Hear me out first..90% of the people on youtube are idiots, BUT the more i heard what this dude had to say the more it made sense to me, not just from personal experience but on a scientific level as well. basically overtraining to build muscle.

now ive seen dylan talk about importance of rest days and rick talk about myostatin, etc. so this is all based around that and more. im not going to go into detail because i am still reading and i cant remember all the information i read BUT it basically has to do with myostatin levels, rest days, nuclei, satellite cells, mitochondria, glycogen capacity, fascia tissue, mTor, etc.

this involves high reps and high volume training. you can apply this to one bodypart or your entire body as well.

here is an example run down. lets say you want to bring up your biceps because they are lagging. keep in mind you dont train the body part for hours on end, you train to get maximum pump and stretching and engorge the muscle. this can be done in as little as 10 min a day. rest time between sets is minimal to zero

you would train biceps everyday with high volume/high reps for 2-4 weeks, then after that period is over you would take 1 week off for that bodypart. so for biceps that means no biceps OR back. then after the rest period you would continue your normal bicep training with heavier weights. in theory (AND practice) this is supposed to explode your muscle growth because of several factors. how it is set up perfectly primes your muscles for growth, there is a prep phase, which is the 2-4 week, engorging muscles with blood (lactic acid flushing and keeping myostatin levels low), stretching fascia tissue, increasing number of nucleus/satellite cells or mitochondria in cells, increased capillaries, then setting up for increased glycogen capacity to come during Resting Phase (detraining phase), and the muscle growth is after Rest phase when you continue heavy training. some of this can also explain Noob Gains and why you eventually slow down or plateau.

i probably left stuff out but that is the basic idea. NOW i want to lay down some examples of overtraining and how people with certain body parts they are known for actually "overtrained" them in the past. most people did this by accident without really knowing and ended up having massive bodyparts. as a matter of fact, most bodyparts people attribute to genetics may actually be overtraining from their younger years.

arnolds Biceps - everyone knows arnies biceps are some of the best, but is this pure genetics? DOUBTFUL. if anyone knows me, they would know i am not a fan of throwing the genetics card out. yes i believe genetics have a role BUT i believe the role is much much smaller then people portray. arnold had good genetics yes, but what i mean by that is his muscle shape, muscle bellies, attachments, how his physique flowed, his bone structure, etc. he looked like an average person before he really started lifting and roiding. I dont believe his Biceps are attributed to genetics i really think that is massive amounts of training over years and years. you find younger pics of him his biceps are puny. what we know for sure is arnold trained his biceps ALOT when he was younger. that was his favorite bodypart and he overtrained the CRAP out of his biceps. arnolds known for chest as well obviously, and he trained chest 2-3 x a week at one point, and frequently BBers in golden era trained chest and arms Twice a Week (not counting Back which hits Biceps again)

frank mcgraths forearms - when frank was in high school he said the girls liked big forearms, so to impress girls he used to do forearms everyday before school to come into school with a Pump.

johnny jacksons traps - the dude said when he was young he did a lot of wheelbarrow work, and to get it done faster he would load it extremely heavy, essentially heavy farmers walks. he also said when he was younger, to show off in the gym he would do heavy shrugs at the end of all his workouts. he ended up overdeveloping this crap out of his traps and he doesnt even train them anymore..

male gymnasts have massive upperbodies - all they do is rings and dip like motions and stuff EVERY DAY. they have some of the best upper bodies from "overtraining"


serge nubret - known for doing 135lbs on bench for an Hour straight.

countless NATURAL people as well too many to list them all.

but i have heard of a thai boy training muy thai carrying heavy buckets of water up a hill everyday to his master, his traps blew up like crazy.
heard of an old man who did Chin ups everyday before all of his workouts, his back blew the heck up
i know a dude who did bench press everyday in the gym, within 3 months his chest tris and front delts blew the heck up.
plenty of people in prison doing push ups and pull ups all day every day having MASSIVE upper bodies.


even me personally now that i think back, when i was younger i used to destroy my forearms. i posted pics earlier of my forearms for anyone who wants to see, they are 16". 2-3 x a week, ON TOP of doing shrugs, back, etc. which all work forearms even more. OVERTRAINING the CRAP out of them..they blew up so bad that now i cannot train them directly anymore. also my traps are another strong point, and i frequently did HEAVY shrugs combined with heavy drop sets with dumbells, lots of volume and full stretching, my traps blew the heck up. and i never even did deadlifts growing up, just shrugs.

the examples go on forever but the point has been made. rich piana actually made a video about "feeder workouts" for arm growth as well, this follows somewhat the same priniciples of this overtrainig method, which the dude coined it NUCLEUS OVERLOAD TRAINING. there is real validity to this despite what magazines or BBing "professionals" say or even what most "science" says.
Very good post brother. That is an interesting philosophy but I think some valid points are brought up for sure. Over training is often times overplayed, and not so cut and dry. There are a,lot of different methods to imply and incorporate out there for growth and progression while at the same time capitalizing on the right balance with rest and adequate recovery
 
P

PHURIOUS

Guest
To me over training has been a term i use differently. Sometimes i work certain muscles every workout even as a warm up before my actual lift schedule. Like if i did chest the day before and hard. The next day i come in and do warm up chest stuff with a little less weight and get everything loosened up and mayhe some extra work then when im warmed up/pumped up i go to do lets say my arm routine. And vice versa on other days. I find i recover faster this way and not as sore. Is that over training? NO.

To me over training is a combination of not listening to your body and stubborness. Over training is continuing to train an area that hurts abnormally. For instance i do arms. Lets say i get after it and the next day im really sore. But one bicep is really hurt more than the other. Thats the body saying "hey i think you MAY have pushed me too far i need a day or so to bounce back". But the. We say nah its fine. We dont listen train it hard again and starin or tear something.

THATS "over training" training something past the point of its capable tensil strength to leave vulnerabke to injury.

In short when you go to the gym and u try to bench and u feel weaker than usual. Listen to ur body and go do something else.


PHURIOUS
 

cmb5017

Active member
Member
Good post. I'm one of the few that don't believe in over training..as long as proper nutrients a nd recovery time are there then your fine. If u trained the same body part every day then yeah but what dummy will do that? Lol.
U give that muscle the adequate nutrition it needs plus rest. And it will recover and u can hit it again
 

the force

Member
Good post. I'm one of the few that don't believe in over training..as long as proper nutrients a nd recovery time are there then your fine. If u trained the same body part every day then yeah but what dummy will do that? Lol.
U give that muscle the adequate nutrition it needs plus rest. And it will recover and u can hit it again
"and you can hit it again" :D
 

SpikedEggnog

Active member
i want to clarify a few things for everyone who is reading or read this before.

this overtraining method, aka Nucleus Overload, is NOT with heavy weights. this is light weights LOTS of volume and 20 reps + . you want the burn, lactic acid buildup, massive pump, and stretch. you should not have to worry about getting injured because you will be using light weights. you train the bodypart(s) every day, YES EVERY DAY. you are supposed to "overtrain" the muscle. it is all for a specific reason. and not everyone may agree BUT most people that disagree have never tried something like this and are scared to try something different for fear of losing gains/strength. this method is intended for Sarcoplasmic Hypertrophy. for those unfamiliar with that term, it is basically muscle size or fullness but not necessarily any strength associated with it. this is why you can see guys with massive arms who can barely curl 40lb dumbells. this method is meant to be employed for 2-4 weeks followed IMMEDIATELY by a week of complete rest (at least for the bodypart that was overtrained). now after that week of rest you resume your normal strength training aka Heavier Weights, this should allow you to break through plateaus and gain more muscle size faster then before aka Myofibrillar Hypertrophy, this is the true muscle growth. but MYO hyper doesnt necessarily mean more Size in appearance either, this is why you see super scronny guys lifting super heavy weights. lots of strength but very little muscles. a muscle can be denser with more fibers but not much bigger. BOTH sides of hypertrophy are important, that is why it is good to do heavy training and high rep training aka Drop sets, burnouts, etc. and this method intends to exploit Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy leading to a week of rest which leads to Myofibrillar hypertrophy when resuming heavy weights. this is not something you do year round, it is meant for lagging bodyparts. and remember, most of us here are BBers. would you take 2 inches on your arms and chest if it meant you lost 20% strength on bench and curl? BBing is about appearances and illusions, NOT true strength. when you are on stage no one gives a crap how much you bench. if your chest is massive as crap then no one can talk.

i would be interested to see anyones experience if they want to try this method for a bit. i personally will try it and log my experiences. if anyone else wants to try it let me know.
 

TX TERROR

MODERATOR
Member
Excellent post bro.

I live by a few rules. You lay shit down! You leave it all in the gym! You do not leave without a feeling of epic accomplishment!

Now weather that be a normal workout or a brutal workout so be it. Bottom line is you get it done.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk
 

mastermolnar

Active member
Great post. Very informative despite much of it being theoretical (sound as the theory may be). I can get behind a lot of it. I have followed a similar ideology with my tris and have seen tremendous progress with them over the past few months. I can attest to my experience and focusing on tris daily for a week at a time has done wonders for me... that and a bunch of tren
 

SpikedEggnog

Active member
Great post. Very informative despite much of it being theoretical (sound as the theory may be). I can get behind a lot of it. I have followed a similar ideology with my tris and have seen tremendous progress with them over the past few months. I can attest to my experience and focusing on tris daily for a week at a time has done wonders for me... that and a bunch of tren

the TREN probably didnt help at all lol....
 

SpikedEggnog

Active member
Now what are some feelings and effects from over training one can get?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

anything from soreness to fatigue (physical or mental), Flat/Weak muscles, etc. can even lose motivation..

but this is actual overtraining. what it is talking about above is more like Overload training, a specific priniciple and the key is the REST period afterwards
 
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