Cycling TRT to try and maintain fertility long term

[DarthBannon]

Hello. I just turned 39 years old and I started TRT at 125 mg/week (just did my first injection). I've never taken anything even resembling PEDs in my life. For starters here were my 3 labs over the last two months:

1) Total = 406, Free = Lab Error (Labcorp)
2) Total = 492, Free = Lab Error (Labcorp)
3) Total = 534, Free = 58.6 (46-224), Bio available = 115.3 (110-575), SHBG = 43 (10-50) (Quest Diagnostic)

I won't post images of all the labs (unless requested), but here's the Quest Diagnostic: http://i.imgur.com/zi9AZ8u.jpg

At LabCorp, I was getting >50 for my free T two seperate times!. (Upper limit of their range being 25.) That's why I labeled those "lab error". The results made no sense, so that's why the doctor switched to Quest Diagnostic, which gave results that were more as expected, even though total T was a little higher. She even called LabCorp, and they said they never saw anything like it (total T so low, with free so high). So whatever.

My doc (anti-aging clinic) wanted me on HCG, but from what I researched I think long term HCG is a horrible idea. So I am only on Test Cyp (125 mg/week spread over two doses) and Anastrozole (.25 mg 2x/week). She prescribed me Clomid, saying it might help long term fertility. But I'm not taking it yet. I'm waiting until after the 6 week labs to get a baseline of what simply test+anastrozole do.

I wanted to start TRT to help me get some energy to tackle some life issues. Never married. Never been in a long term relationship. Not many friends, etc. (Although I do have a good career) I'm suspecting my T was probably low 300s from ages 25-35. I used to be sedentary and obese. But now I've been working out hard for the last 3 years, and it's helped a lot. (Just to eliminate ambiguity of "working out hard", after 3 years my Bench is 250x1, Squat 375x1, Deadlift 525x1) But I still have a lot of the low-T symptoms, and obviously the labs show me in the 400s to low 500s, which is well below average. My free/bioavailable T also looks pretty bad.

Now, if my life continues as is, I'm probably never going to have kids anyway. But if the TRT really gives me some drive, I can see it maybe happening. So that's the big catch-22.

This is my idea to maintain fertility, longer-term. Try cylcing TRT every 6 months to a year. My thinking is the body adapts to all kinds of stresses if they aren't too big. So we'll start with a medium stress. After my first six months, I go off and get back to natural production. I know it will be nasty and unpleasant, but this isn't heroin FFS. I can deal with it. Then after that, I go back on and cycle off only 1x per year. I think it is a very good guess that this has a much better chance of maintaining some fertility over the next 5 or 6 years than just staying on 100%. I'm not sure how long to cycle off, but I figure I just go back on TRT once my T-levels are naturally back in the 400-500 range for a couple weeks.

Any thoughts on this? Also, any thoughts on the doctor's idea to take Clomid long term while on TRT?

 

[Osculum]

You can put sperm in a bank.
Also, what was your level before TRT? Men can take clomid to double test levels to get things pulsing, during a very short interval. It eat your testes working ether that. Shutting them down. I'd try that first. Also there is a peptide called Triporelin you can discuss with your Dr. To restart your HPTA axis. Do serious research Don't misuse that peptide.)

You shouldn't need TRT under 50. More likely you need to address health and social issues first. Get things fixed.
Also a 10 week cycle of test could help without going long term TRT but that's after you get in Real shape and get your life right.


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[DarthBannon]

You can put sperm in a bank.
Also, what was your level before TRT?

Those are my levels before TRT. I've already started TRT, but it's too early to see the effects (first injection was Wednesday).

You shouldn't need TRT under 50. More likely you need to address health and social issues first. Get things fixed.
Also a 10 week cycle of test could help without going long term TRT but that's after you get in Real shape and get your life right.

I hear what you are saying, but the low energy is just miserable. I workout hard and I have counted ALL my macros for three years. And not like some bros do. I weigh everything like a god damn scientist and I never trust MFP macros, I always enter my own to be sure. I haven't just been fucking around. My discipline is not an issue. Feeling like shit all the time is the issue.

And I mean, I'm already injecting, so the decision has been made. Putting a strict age limit on TRT doesn't really make sense to me. There are too many factors to consider.

 

[DarthBannon]

Let me ask a more precise question. Would 6 months of TRT be insanely harder to come off of than something like a 12 week cycle? Would the same PCT principles apply?

 

[buen]

This is just so wrong...your total test averages 500ng/dL...wtf ..you are not hypogonadal !
The testoserone reference range of 300 to 1100ng/dL is misunderstood....it's not like 1000 is normal and you are only 1/2 full
The reference range is just that....when tested normal HEALTHY males will fall between those numbers....probable less than 10% of men are ever above 750 at any time in their lives

500 is NORMAL..it is NOT "well below average"... being low isn't even in question...
Upping your serum level to 1000ng will do little compared to your natural production of 500ng....and TRT comes with a whole host of other factors that can compromise your health and how "you feel"

so ...you want more energy and you think TRT will give it to you...I bet you did nothing to reduce stress..change your diet, sleep, exercise to try and "feel better"
you blindly blame low test...which totally wrong!
What makes this really stupid ..is that you want to remain as fertile as possible..then you go on unnecessary TRT

you didn't post your FSH and LH results..that info would be helpful

Brother..my humble suggestion
1. stop TRT...use 50-100mg ed Provirion...it will lower your SHBG and raise your Free Testosterone..This in and of it's self may be all you need...if your FSH and LH are low also ..the clomid also can be a big help

2. look to the other factors in your life that would be causing your low energy...it's not low testosterone

 

[buen]

Let me ask a more precise question. Would 6 months of TRT be insanely harder to come off of than something like a 12 week cycle? Would the same PCT principles apply?

YES..........it would be a dramatically harder and a much LONGER PCT.... compared to a normal cycle PCT

 

[DarthBannon]

500 is NORMAL..it is NOT "well below average"... being low isn't even in question...
Upping your serum level to 1000ng will do little compared to your natural production of 500ng....and TRT comes with a whole host of other factors that can compromise your health and how "you feel"

Well I had one reading at 409. And that is with intense training and dialed in diet. And my free is actually really low.

so ...you want more energy and you think TRT will give it to you...I bet you did nothing to reduce stress..change your diet, sleep, exercise to try and "feel better"
you blindly blame low test...which totally wrong!

Actually that is all wrong. I first considered TRT over one year ago, so it is not something I did blindly. I struggled a lot with the choice. Like I said in one of the replies, I count macros religiously and have tried lots of fat/carb/prot tweaks. I lift heavy and I sleep 8+ hours. The problem is, if I'm in bed 9 hours I might get 6 or 7 hours of sleep because I always wake up in the middle of the night and toss and turn. Also, I very rarely have nocturnal erections.

What makes this really stupid ..is that you want to remain as fertile as possible..then you go on unnecessary TRT

My fertility doesn't really matter if I don't have the energy to change my life enough to do anything with it.

you didn't post your FSH and LH results..that info would be helpful

LH was 5.0 mIU/mL (1.6-8.6 mIU/mL range). Doctor did not check FSH.

Brother..my humble suggestion
1. stop TRT...use 50-100mg ed Provirion...it will lower your SHBG and raise your Free Testosterone..This in and of it's self may be all you need...if your FSH and LH are low also ..the clomid also can be a big help

I have no idea what Provirion is, but I'll look into it.

2. look to the other factors in your life that would be causing your low energy...it's not low testosterone

I can get my testosterone high, but I have to eat at an extreme surplus. I start having morning wood when I'm eating about 4500 calories and training hard. But I also gain about 1-1.5 lb/week at those macros.

I do DEXA scans before and after bulking, and I gained 60% fat and 40% muscle, which is extremely frustrating.

YES..........it would be a dramatically harder and a much LONGER PCT.... compared to a normal cycle PCT

What if I did 3 months? I mean I already paid for all the shit and started doing the injections (I've done one 62.5 mg injection so far, and have another scheduled for tomorrow). I might as well see how it makes me feel, no?

 

[buen]

You are just looking for justification
one 400 reading is meaningless..your testosterone fluctuates..time of day..stress level..what you ate etc
you have 2 scores that average above 500..THAT is your level...and it is totally normal...as I said..try to bring up your free test and you might feel better

 

[buen]

I mean I already paid for all the shit

And this is the reason you are getting shitty advice from a quack "TRT Dr"

 

[DarthBannon]

I can see your point. But you are 100% looking at the number, nothing else. I did all three readings first thing in the morning. Diet is extremely consistent. Within +-1g on P/C/F. I mean for real. I don't fuck around with food.

And like I said, free-T is low. Nocturnal erections are once a week at most. Sex drive is low. I have an almost stress-free life. I can go in and leave work on my own schedule (engineer). I have no family to stress me out. I just do what I want, when I want.

I lift hard 4x/week consistently for 3 years. I am also not bullshitting. I HAVE NOT MISSED A SESSION IN THREE YEARS. Period. Sometimes I program a 3 day low stress week after high volume or high intensity blocks, but I don't care if I'm sick or dying.... I get my workout done. I am probably one of the most disciplined people I know. So if your assumptions are I'm some fat lazy bastard who just thought "that looks easy... I'll try it", you are very wrong.

I have been very hesitant to do this, and I admit you are scaring me into dropping it. You say "I'm looking for justification", but actually it's the other way around. I'm nervous and I'm looking for a reason to jump ship.

Maybe I will try Clomid and see how that works out first. I don't know about that Provirian. As far as I understand, oral steroids are pretty bad for you. But admittedly, I'd probably have to do more research.

 

[theoldcountry]

Buen is correct. A reading of 400-500 is not extremely low. It is on the lower end of the scale, but you are not real low. When I was 45 my Test level was 270.

I don't think TRT would be an issue to get up closer to the high end of the scale.

 

[Mb50]

If fertility is even a tiny concern trt injections should be a last resort. You don't want to be 5 yrs in and want kids and it may not be possible. You don't cycle trt it is a life long commitment and it doesn't sound like you are ready. I would strongly recommend you discuss trying clomid therapy with your doc so you don't permanently shut yourself down. Many men have had great results getting their levels consistently in the 8-900 range. Why risk permanent shut down when it's not even necessary. You should do some more research before you continue down this path. Try visiting some real trt forums and doing some more research first.

 

[RickRock]

You've been given some great advice here so I hope you take the time to soak it in. TRT is a pretty big deal and a lifetime commitment. It's something that should always be looked at as a last resort, after extinguishing all avenues trying to correct things first

 

[buen]

It is on the lower end of the scale,

Sorry..you are wrong..
It is not on the lower end "of the scale"

567ng/dl is the median average

the 95 percentile is 945ng/dL.....meaning only 5% of men have total testosterone levels 945 or above

 

[RedMorkai]

There are plenty of other things that can contribute to low energy and spill over into other issues. Your test is fine IMO. You mention you have trouble sleeping, have you test cortisol? Have you had tests on vit d? CBC? b12? prolactin?

 

[DarthBannon]

I appreciate all the feedback. It has been real food for thought and has given me some pause. I think it is good advice to give in general, especially for most guys.

That said, I think I am still going to try it for at least three months. If it is not absolutely life changing, I'm just going to cycle off and leave it behind. But if it is like night and day, and completely changes my life, I will stay on and take the infertility risks.

I think this is a reasonable approach. I understand TRT in general is "for life", especially if you have real hypogonadism (I have always understood that I **don't**, and I never meant to imply that I did. I just suspect that I am low enough to be symptomatic). But there's no one putting a gun to my head. If it's not what I expect, I just go off. It's not like a cycle at 125mg/week is more dangerous than an actual steroid cycle with a base of 300mg/week of test. But some people almost act like it is. That is what I don't understand.

In fact, I look forward to the challenge of cycling off periodically, even if the TRT makes me feel awesome. (I know you "don't cycle TRT"... but that is in-the-box thinking, IMO. You can do whatever you want.) I enjoy challenging things, even if they cause pain.

 

[Osculum]

If you gain weight without trying you might have a thyroid disorder. Look into functional medicine. There is a great practitioner named Chris Kresser who has a blog & podcast. They go over auto-immune disorders, gluten sensitivity, etc to figure out what's wrong with you. My test was @ 350 last time. Your test is normal. You might have a serious thyroid disorder.


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[[9oNe6]BillyD@kid]

this is just so wrong...your total test averages 500ng/dl...wtf ..you are not hypogonadal !
The testoserone reference range of 300 to 1100ng/dl is misunderstood....it's not like 1000 is normal and you are only 1/2 full
the reference range is just that....when tested normal healthy males will fall between those numbers....probable less than 10% of men are ever above 750 at any time in their lives

500 is normal..it is not "well below average"... Being low isn't even in question...
Upping your serum level to 1000ng will do little compared to your natural production of 500ng....and trt comes with a whole host of other factors that can compromise your health and how "you feel"

so ...you want more energy and you think trt will give it to you...i bet you did nothing to reduce stress..change your diet, sleep, exercise to try and "feel better"
you blindly blame low test...which totally wrong!
What makes this really stupid ..is that you want to remain as fertile as possible..then you go on unnecessary trt

you didn't post your fsh and lh results..that info would be helpful

brother..my humble suggestion
1. Stop trt...use 50-100mg ed provirion...it will lower your shbg and raise your free testosterone..this in and of it's self may be all you need...if your fsh and lh are low also ..the clomid also can be a big help

2. Look to the other factors in your life that would be causing your low energy...it's not low testosterone

^^^op read this and then read it 2 more times^^^

 

[[9oNe6]BillyD@kid]

You would be much better off not trying to justify an unhealthy decision you seem to be attempting to make here. Just be honest with yourself that you want to opt for TRT without true cause and go from there. Personal decision, but this also would be contradictory to what you seem to truly want if you are attempting to remain fertile. Of course you will feel better on drugs, theyre drugs, drugs make you feel better just like cocaine, alcohol and heroin ! doesnt mean you truly need them and will be so much unhealthier for it in the long run actually cutting your life short., Again as long as you can admit this then everything here would be completely preference and not necessity.

 

[[9oNe6]BillyD@kid]

I appreciate all the feedback. It has been real food for thought and has given me some pause. I think it is good advice to give in general, especially for most guys.

That said, I think I am still going to try it for at least three months. If it is not absolutely life changing, I'm just going to cycle off and leave it behind. But if it is like night and day, and completely changes my life, I will stay on and take the infertility risks.

I think this is a reasonable approach. I understand TRT in general is "for life", especially if you have real hypogonadism (I have always understood that I **don't**, and I never meant to imply that I did. I just suspect that I am low enough to be symptomatic). But there's no one putting a gun to my head. If it's not what I expect, I just go off. It's not like a cycle at 125mg/week is more dangerous than an actual steroid cycle with a base of 300mg/week of test. But some people almost act like it is. That is what I don't understand.

In fact, I look forward to the challenge of cycling off periodically, even if the TRT makes me feel awesome. (I know you "don't cycle TRT"... but that is in-the-box thinking, IMO. You can do whatever you want.) I enjoy challenging things, even if they cause pain.

bro of course its going to be night and day, you are on drugs lol ! drugs make people feel better, thats what they do...