3 weeks on SARMS - Testosterone from 555 to 44!

All - just came across another article that could explain my elevated AST and ALT levels. I was NOT exercising super hard prior to starting my cycle. I was lifting weights but have increased the intensity quite a bit. From what his article reads - AST and ALT can elevate due to muscle damage (from intense lifting) in healthy people and still NOT be a sign of liver issues. They even go on to show that there are ranges that show you can be 2-5x the high end of the range and still be OK. Now many of you may not experience this as you had been training pretty intense for quite sometime. But I wasn't. Might be a possible cause. The way to rule it out is a GGT test (which is not included in the blood tests I've been getting). The article states:

"The simplest blood test that should be included when examining liver health in people engaging in regular intense resistance exercise is GGT (gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase). The reason is that GGT distinguishes healthy people with resistance training induced elevations in ALT and AST from patients with hepatitis.[17] One notable study found that bodybuilders (both anabolic steroid non-users and users) both had a GGT level around 30 U/L (normal range for this assay; 8-78 U/L), while hepatitis patients had GGT levels of 212 U/L (i.e. a 2.7-fold elevation above the upper end of normal range)."

So I'm going to request this to see what's really going on. Just thought I would share.

Here is full article:

http://www.agelessforever.net/anti-...-s-how-to-interpret-your-liver-function-tests

As well as this one:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/scri...ticlekey=93641#elevated_levels_of_ast_and_alt

beastmode45 said:

I started the Tongkat the day before which could have been the cause of the bump in LH FSH, but maybe it was too early to bump the testosterone. Maybe if I do another set of bloods this Friday, testosterone might be going up...but it's a guess. I need to bump it fast as it's declining rapidly.

Click to expand...

it didnt work that fucking fast bro... i wish!!!! LOL but we do have to get to the bottom of this because there are so many things that just do not add up... very perplexing shit going on

beastmode45 said:

All - just came across another article that could explain my elevated AST and ALT levels. I was NOT exercising super hard prior to starting my cycle. I was lifting weights but have increased the intensity quite a bit. From what his article reads - AST and ALT can elevate due to muscle damage (from intense lifting) in healthy people and still NOT be a sign of liver issues. They even go on to show that there are ranges that show you can be 2-5x the high end of the range and still be OK. Now many of you may not experience this as you had been training pretty intense for quite sometime. But I wasn't. Might be a possible cause. The way to rule it out is a GGT test (which is not included in the blood tests I've been getting). The article states:

"The simplest blood test that should be included when examining liver health in people engaging in regular intense resistance exercise is GGT (gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase). The reason is that GGT distinguishes healthy people with resistance training induced elevations in ALT and AST from patients with hepatitis.[17] One notable study found that bodybuilders (both anabolic steroid non-users and users) both had a GGT level around 30 U/L (normal range for this assay; 8-78 U/L), while hepatitis patients had GGT levels of 212 U/L (i.e. a 2.7-fold elevation above the upper end of normal range)."

So I'm going to request this to see what's really going on. Just thought I would share.

Here is full article:

http://www.agelessforever.net/anti-...-s-how-to-interpret-your-liver-function-tests

As well as this one:

http://www.emedicinehealth.com/scri...ticlekey=93641#elevated_levels_of_ast_and_alt

Click to expand...

that could definitely explain that issue bro, yes... hopefully that is all it is but i would still be using tudca regardless along with milk thistle...

beastmode45 said:

What brand of Tudca? Seems like there are many.

Click to expand...

Tudca .... http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nutricost-T...669170?hash=item5d61512ff2:g:5EIAAOSw5dNWr6Lp

you should also get Nac... Hospitals administer high doses of NAC to over dose patients who livers are failing... it repairs the liver

NAC .... http://www.ebay.com/itm/NOW-Foods-N...671881?hash=item1a09639909:g:xNUAAOSwLmVXDsw6

DylanGemelli said:

that could definitely explain that issue bro, yes... hopefully that is all it is but i would still be using tudca regardless along with milk thistle...

Click to expand...

Yeah, all kind of crazy going on .

Ok, so in talking with the Endocronologist, he said he isn't concerned about the ALT and AST levels - kind of seemed like he agreed with the study I mentioned, and though they were high (outside of range by about 2x), he said it would concern him if it was like 5-10x the "high" end...which I'm nowhere near.

So for the Liver, I'm just going to take some Tudka and NAC just to be safe...it can't hurt to keep it in the lower ranges.

For the testosterone situation, he said that they original f'd up injection my doc gave me 5 weeks ago caused this (as we all suspected) and that I'm just bottoming out, but it's turning the corner and will recover naturally. He didn't even want me on Clomid or anything to help "jumpstart" it. I thought that was strange. He said that since I was producing fine before, I just need to let nature run it's course and I will recover back to my normal healthy ranges. I'm supposed to go back to him in 5 weeks.

I told him I was on SARMS - just so he had all of the information. Of course he said to stop. Given that I'm surpressed, it's probably best to take the safe route and stop my SARMS cycle for 4 weeks and let things recover.

What do you think about these plans - which would you do?

Plan A:
1. Stop SARMS for 4 weeks
2. Run Tudca, NAC and Tongat Ali for 4 weeks
3. Monitor blood work ~weekly, to watch for increases in Testosterone, FSH, LH and Estradiol, and decreases in AST/ALT.

Plan B:
1. Stop SARMS for 4 weeks
2. Run Tudca, NAC and Tongat Ali for 4 weeks
3. Monitor blood work ~weekly, to watch for increases in Testosterone, FSH, LH and Estradiol, and decreases in AST/ALT.
4. Run Clomid, MK-2866, and GW for 4 weeks as well (mini-PCT) - since I have no Estrogen issues (my thinking is that this will help jumpstart the LH/FSH, and help me maintain my gains safely).

Do you think Plan B is too risky? Should I just go conservative Plan A, and then restart my SARMS stack after things are normal?

B

DylanGemelli said:

it didnt work that fucking fast bro... i wish!!!! LOL but we do have to get to the bottom of this because there are so many things that just do not add up... very perplexing shit going on

Click to expand...

That's good news then...since my LH and FSH were starting to rise ever so slightly.

I'd go with plan B or plan B lite = minus the MK ...... Clomid/GW.... just my opinion... as long as its from sarmx

noparking99 said:

I'd go with plan B or plan B lite = minus the MK ...... Clomid/GW.... just my opinion... as long as its from sarmx

Click to expand...

If I remove Clomid, MK an GW - it's effectively Plan A. Did I misunderstand you?

to be honest with you, i would just run a full pct at this point... its not going to do anything but benefit you and I KNEW YOUR DOCTOR FUCKED UP... what a prick!

beastmode45 said:

If I remove Clomid, MK an GW - it's effectively Plan A. Did I misunderstand you?

Click to expand...

No.. what I meant is run clomid and GW take out the MK.... that would be the middle of the road... but like Dylan is saying... I'd run some sort of PCT... and take that Tudca NAC and milk thistle as well.... I used to be a heavy, heavy drinker of whisky in my military youth Bro... Ive been taking Tudca,Nac and milk thistle and my liver numbers are 28 and 23... So it works... Also if you want to be proactive take Licorice extract root for your pancreas

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172429158616?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

DylanGemelli said:

to be honest with you, i would just run a full pct at this point... its not going to do anything but benefit you and I KNEW YOUR DOCTOR FUCKED UP... what a prick!

Click to expand...

That's the only thing that makes any sense in this situation.

noparking99 said:

No.. what I meant is run clomid and GW take out the MK.... that would be the middle of the road... but like Dylan is saying... I'd run some sort of PCT... and take that Tudca NAC and milk thistle as well.... I used to be a heavy, heavy drinker of whisky in my military youth Bro... Ive been taking Tudca,Nac and milk thistle and my liver numbers are 28 and 23... So it works... Also if you want to be proactive take Licorice extract root for your pancreas

http://www.ebay.com/itm/172429158616?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice on the Licorice extract. Will look into this too.

Sorry, I'm late to this one and yes, the dr fucked up big time. In cases like yours clomid is usually prescribed to get your test levels up abit, never exogenous test, never.

I have to take clomid during a sarms cycle, because my test crashes badly (from 600> 117), with clomid @50mg daily, I stay around 300.

Sorry for the late add, just thought I'd post this.

jp1957 said:

Sorry, I'm late to this one and yes, the dr fucked up big time. In cases like yours clomid is usually prescribed to get your test levels up abit, never exogenous test, never.

I have to take clomid during a sarms cycle, because my test crashes badly (from 600> 117), with clomid @50mg daily, I stay around 300.

Sorry for the late add, just thought I'd post this.

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Yeah started Clomid today. Keeping MK2866 and GW going, and adding Tuscan, Nac and Milk Thistle to bring down Liver enzymes. 4 weeks and then we will see where I'm at.

I did see and Endo and a Urologist. Both suggested do nothing and it would come back. I figured I would run Clomid week to week and test bloods each week and see how things progress. If things return I will stop Clomid and continue monitoring. Playing it week to week right now. Keeping diet and training in place.

Clomid takes about 2 weeks to kick in.

i would not just do nothing.. these doctors are something else.. you are doing this the right way... now you just have to correct THEIR continuous mistakes

Here is an update.

I was at 18, now I'm back to 44 1.5 weeks later. So slowly recovering but not fast enough. What should I do?

beastmode45 said:

Here is an update.

I was at 18, now I'm back to 44 1.5 weeks later. So slowly recovering but not fast enough. What should I do?

Click to expand...

what I would do ...if you wanted to speed things up is drop the MK from your PCT... should help your natural test come back up little quicker... just my opinion.

blaze91 said:

what I would do ...if you wanted to speed things up is drop the MK from your PCT... should help your natural test come back up little quicker... just my opinion.

Click to expand...

Yes. I will do that. Maybe it's causing some mild suppression which is impacting recovery during my PCT.

Is this normal to be this low still after bottoming out?

Also I thought it was odd that I've gone from 555 to >1500 to 44 to 18 to 44. Why did 44 appear 2x. What are the odds? It wasn't 45 or 43, but 44. Maybe it has to do with their testing methods - but it struck me as odd to hit the EXACT same number again.

@DylanGemelli - any thoughts?

Well if your not on TRT then yes MK will give you mild suppression ... It gave me mild suppression..... I'm 55 not on TRT.... I think you just have to give it time too... and as far as the 44.... just a coincidence bro....